Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

[rakovsky]

My suggestion, Joe:
Get the best photo of the fragment you can and put a different color circle around each yod and waw in the fragment like Spin started doing on what he considered a touched up photo. (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1978&start=10#p62124)
Then post it on your blog.

The U in Karu in the B&W photo looks to me the longest lowest letter in that word. The U in the word under it looks connected to the Aleph at the end of that word, making it again the longest lowest letter in the word (besides one of the Aleph's legs). The third one he put in blue looks no longer and lower than the other letters in its same word, only thicker and blacker at the bottom.

He showed three yods that were at the very end of words and indeed looked long, but each of them was definitely shorter than the letter preceding it.

This review by me has made me think that more likely the word is Kaaru, since the u in the Karu fits the mold you quoted about being "slightly longer", which it is based on the preceding letter's length.

[spin]

My suggestion, Joe:
Get the best photo of the fragment you can and put a different color circle around each yod and waw in the fragment like Spin started doing on what he considered a touched up photo. (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1978&start=10#p62124)
Then post it on your blog.

The U in Karu in the B&W photo looks to me the longest lowest letter in that word. The U in the word under it looks connected to the Aleph at the end of that word, making it again the longest lowest letter in the word (besides one of the Aleph's legs). The third one he put in blue looks no longer and lower than the other letters in its same word, only thicker and blacker at the bottom.

This is not true. The final letter (yod) is obviously taller than the resh which is reduced because of the last arm of the alef (a phenomenon you should now understand), but the alef is taller than the last letter as is the kaf.

He showed three yods that were at the very end of words

Which is of course where the yod in the word in question is, at the um.. end of the word.

and indeed looked long, but each of them was definitely shorter than the letter preceding it.

That doesn't mean anything in the context. It's hard to be longer than a nun, when it cuts off the downward stroke of the following letter. Besides the basic premise is falsified by the second yod in the following word, yadi, whicj is longer than the daleth.

This review by me has made me think that more likely the word is Kaaru,

This is typical of confirmation bias. You need to deal with the well known phenomen of waw/yod confusion in the DSS and Nachal Hever is within this ambit. Try Qimron's standard work on Qumran Hebrew. He deals with the orthography. (I'm away from all books at the moment—otherwise I'd give you proper biblographical data.)

since the u in the Karu fits the mold you quoted about being "slightly longer", which it is based on the preceding letter's length.

All unfounded. Unware of the generic problem of waw/yod of the period. Confirming bias. And the supposed Hebrew word behind "ka'aru" is so mangled it shows the conclusion without a trajectory. It is very hard to cope with sliding meaning from "dug" to "pierced".

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And fuck, Android is hopeless when trying to edit text in a html edit box. Anything bigger than a tweet and you have a battle just to get to the line below the bottom of the box. (Any strange typos I'll blame on the keyboard.)

[JoeWallack]

JW:
Here is the offending fragment in all its glory:



I've greatly increased the contrast from the official photograph to make it easier to read. No doubt if the Jew was on the other hands and feet Schmuelman! would have already gone wild dogs/lions on it with the following questions:

• 1) Why is this fragment the only fragment on the official photograph page that is badly faded?
  
  2) Why did I greatly increase the contrast?
  
  3) Why does this fragment look like pages of Sinaiticus before/during/after Tischendorf?

So have at it. Like I said, spin and I (and others) have already looked at the yods in it and some of the final Yods look to us like they are about the same length as a Vav. Rakovsky, it would be nice if you confessed that you have been somewhat mislead by Apologetic sources here that have blissfully presented the issue with the modern Hebrew alphabet where the Yod is distinctively tiny compared to the Vav. As spin would say, "That's naughty.", not nice.

After we look at this fershclugginer fragment Ad Nazorean we can then look at the most legible related fragment presumably by the same author for the length of final Yods.


Joseph

Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? Nahal Hever Fragment

[rakovsky]

My suggestion, Joe:
Get the best photo of the fragment you can and put a different color circle around each yod and waw in the fragment like Spin started doing on what he considered a touched up photo. (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1978&start=10#p62124)
Then post it on your blog.

The U in Karu in the B&W photo looks to me the longest lowest letter in that word. The U in the word under it looks connected to the Aleph at the end of that word, making it again the longest lowest letter in the word (besides one of the Aleph's legs). The third one he put in blue looks no longer and lower than the other letters in its same word, only thicker and blacker at the bottom.

This is not true. The final letter (yod) is obviously taller than the resh which is reduced because of the last arm of the alef (a phenomenon you should now understand), but the alef is taller than the last letter as is the kaf.

Yes, the u in karu is obviously taller than the resh. I Don't see how other things reduce the resh, and I don't see the Alef or k being taller. In case I am looking at it wrong, I request you do the same as I asked Joe, get a good clear photo of the fragment and circle all waws and yods at the end of words like you started doing with the unclear touched up version.

[rakovsky]

He showed three yods that were at the very end of words

Which is of course where the yod in the word in question is, at the um.. end of the word.

YES, this was meant as my approval of your research Decision of highlighting..

and indeed looked long, but each of them was definitely shorter than the letter preceding it.

That doesn't mean anything in the context. It's hard to be longer than a nun, when it cuts off the downward stroke of the following letter. Besides the basic premise is falsified by the second yod in the following word, yadi, whicj is longer than the daleth.

The bottom half of that yod looks like it could be a smudge, which is why I want to see a better photo.
Also, the yod is not lower than the black blot that scrunched the dalet in yadi.

This review by me has made me think that more likely the word is Kaaru,

This is typical of confirmation bias. You need to deal with the well known phenomen of waw/yod confusion in the DSS and Nachal Hever is within this ambit.

[/quote]
Joe quoted someone as writing that the waws were slightly longer than the yods, in the late herodian period of Nahal Hever. Since the Waw of karu is longer and hooks down below the resh, it looks to fit this pattern of longer waws at the end of words than yods.

To show an alternative solution, I make the suggestion I gave to Joe about using a clear photo and circling letters. I like the idea that you started to perform very much.

[rakovsky]

JW:
Here is the offending fragment in all its glory:



I've greatly increased the contrast from the official photograph to make it easier to read. No doubt if the Jew was on the other hands and feet Schmuelman! would have already gone wild dogs/lions on it with the following questions:

• 1) Why is this fragment the only fragment on the official photograph page that is badly faded?
  
  2) Why did I greatly increase the contrast?
  
  3) Why does this fragment look like pages of Sinaiticus before/during/after Tischendorf?

Number 1 is a Great question, and thanks for adding cobtrast, except I don't know how it looks like sinaiticus. I want to see a better photo than this

So have at it. Like I said, spin and I (and others) have already looked at the yods in it and some of the final Yods look to us like they are about the same length
as a Vav.

Keyword="about".
Do you agree with the source you quoted that the waws usually drawn in that time period are slightly longer?
Because the way the u in karu hooks down below the resh makes it look pretty long.

Rakovsky, it would be nice if you confessed that you have been somewhat mislead by Apologetic sources

I don't like if the colored image I found was touched up, which it looks like it was.
What I have told you has been sincere.

I don't appreciate your references to naughtiness and Whos Lying, but OK, it comes with the territory I guess when you discuss religion, unfortunately, kind of like the Birkat Ha Min.
There will always be scholars and Bible translators who will note for readers that there is an alternate reading in the LXX and in Masoretic texts that you find "naughty".
Best way I can think of to actually totally solve the issue for everyone would be to use a time machine to hear how they pronounced it in 950 bc. Otherwise there will always be people who disagree because of disagreements in the text.

These references by you don't make you more persuasive, and like I said, the views will always be there because of texts explicitly stating this reading you oppose. It will just torment the intolerant people forever.

After we look at this fershclugginer fragment Ad Nazorean we can then look at the most legible related fragment presumably by the same author for the length of final Yods.

Sounds like it can have helpful secondary value.

[rakovsky]

A major persuasive reason for me why it probably says "They dug/pierced", not "like a lion", is David's use of these words elsewhere.
David repeatedly uses the same verb "dug" and even uses it to refer to piercing into body parts.
But he NEVER uses the Hebrew word "ari" for lion like you find in Isaiah 38 and like most Masoretic texts propose for Psalm 22:27, but instead David FIVE TIMES AND ALWAYS uses the word Aryeh.
The word "dug" to describe an action onto body parts is normal for David, while his style of writing makes his using "ari" (eg. KARI) extremely unlikely.

USES OF KRU (THEY DUG)

Psalm 7:15
HEB: בּ֣וֹר כָּ֭רָֽה וַֽיַּחְפְּרֵ֑הוּ וַ֝יִּפֹּ֗ל
NAS: He has dug a pit and hollowed
KJV: He made a pit, and digged
INT: A pit has dug and hollowed fallen

Psalm 22:16
HEB: מְ֭רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּנִי כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי׃
KJV: have inclosed me: they pierced my hands
INT: of evildoers has encompassed dig my hands and my feet

Psalm 40:6
HEB: חָפַ֗צְתָּ אָ֭זְנַיִם כָּרִ֣יתָ לִּ֑י עוֹלָ֥ה
[literally dug open]
NAS: My ears You have opened; Burnt offering
KJV: mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering
INT: desired my ears have opened Burnt and sin

Psalm 57:6
HEB: כָּפַ֪ף נַ֫פְשִׁ֥י כָּר֣וּ לְפָנַ֣י שִׁיחָ֑ה
NAS: is bowed down; They dug a pit
KJV: is bowed down: they have digged a pit
INT: is bowed my soul dug before A pit

Psalm 94:13
HEB: רָ֑ע עַ֤ד יִכָּרֶ֖ה לָרָשָׁ֣ע שָֽׁחַת׃
NAS: Until a pit is dug for the wicked.
KJV: until the pit be digged for the wicked.
INT: of adversity Until is dug the wicked A pit

Psalm 119:85
HEB: כָּֽרוּ־ לִ֣י זֵדִ֣ים
NAS: The arrogant have dug pits
KJV: The proud have digged pits
INT: have dug the arrogant pits

NOW CHECK HERE FOR ALL USES OF "LION" in Psalms:
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_738.htm

It's always אַ֝רְיֵ֗ה, including whenever it shows up in Psalm 22.

Like here:
http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/7-2.htm
HEB: פֶּן־ יִטְרֹ֣ף כְּאַרְיֵ֣ה נַפְשִׁ֑י פֹּ֝רֵ֗ק
KJV: my soul like a lion, rending [it] in pieces

AND HERE;
Psalm 22:13
http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/22-13.htm

AND HERE:
Psalm 22:21
http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/22-21.htm

That is right before and after verse 17. David says his enemies are like an aryeh, Karyeh - not like an ari, Kari - in this Psalm.

[rakovsky]

Best way to ask David what he meant is by looking at how else he uses the words karu and ari. Karu is a verb he uses, even to talk about something that happens to body parts, but ari is not in his style of speech.

Psalm 22.
They gouge my hands and feet.

Next time he uses karu is Psalm 40.
You have dug open my ears.

[rakovsky]

Good discussion here.

[rakovsky]

Strong contextual evidence here of the concept of piercing:

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced [?]my arms and my feet.

20 Deliver my soul from the sword

21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

Bulls attack by piercing with horns
Attack of a lion and a "lion's mouth" uses pointy teeth for piercing.

Being poured out happens to a person after getting pierced.

If the text says that the enemies "encompass and surround" him, do the Hebrew verbs potentially mean "bind"? (Someone earlier on the thread showed a picture of a lion being tied up.)

A sword attacks by piercing.

Horns of unicorns attack by piercing.