Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

rakovsky wrote:A major persuasive reason for me why it probably says "They dug/pierced", not "like a lion", is David's use of these words elsewhere.
David repeatedly uses the same verb "dug" and even uses it to refer to piercing into body parts.
But he NEVER uses the Hebrew word "ari" for lion like you find in Isaiah 38 and like most Masoretic texts propose for Psalm 22:27, but instead David FIVE TIMES AND ALWAYS uses the word Aryeh.
The word "dug" to describe an action onto body parts is normal for David, while his style of writing makes his using "ari" (eg. KARI) extremely unlikely.

USES OF KRU (THEY DUG)

Psalm 7:15
HEB: בּ֣וֹר כָּ֭רָֽה וַֽיַּחְפְּרֵ֑הוּ וַ֝יִּפֹּ֗ל
NAS: He has dug a pit and hollowed
KJV: He made a pit, and digged
INT: A pit has dug and hollowed fallen

Psalm 22:16
HEB: מְ֭רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּנִי כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי׃
KJV: have inclosed me: they pierced my hands
INT: of evildoers has encompassed dig my hands and my feet

Psalm 40:6
HEB: חָפַ֗צְתָּ אָ֭זְנַיִם כָּרִ֣יתָ לִּ֑י עוֹלָ֥ה
[literally dug open]
NAS: My ears You have opened; Burnt offering
KJV: mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering
INT: desired my ears have opened Burnt and sin

Psalm 57:6
HEB: כָּפַ֪ף נַ֫פְשִׁ֥י כָּר֣וּ לְפָנַ֣י שִׁיחָ֑ה
NAS: is bowed down; They dug a pit
KJV: is bowed down: they have digged a pit
INT: is bowed my soul dug before A pit

Psalm 94:13
HEB: רָ֑ע עַ֤ד יִכָּרֶ֖ה לָרָשָׁ֣ע שָֽׁחַת׃
NAS: Until a pit is dug for the wicked.
KJV: until the pit be digged for the wicked.
INT: of adversity Until is dug the wicked A pit

Psalm 119:85
HEB: כָּֽרוּ־ לִ֣י זֵדִ֣ים
NAS: The arrogant have dug pits
KJV: The proud have digged pits
INT: have dug the arrogant pits

NOW CHECK HERE FOR ALL USES OF "LION" in Psalms:
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_738.htm

It's always אַ֝רְיֵ֗ה, including whenever it shows up in Psalm 22.

Like here:
http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/7-2.htm
HEB: פֶּן־ יִטְרֹ֣ף כְּאַרְיֵ֣ה נַפְשִׁ֑י פֹּ֝רֵ֗ק
KJV: my soul like a lion, rending [it] in pieces

AND HERE;
Psalm 22:13
http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/22-13.htm

AND HERE:
Psalm 22:21
http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/22-21.htm

That is right before and after verse 17. David says his enemies are like an aryeh, Karyeh - not like an ari, Kari - in this Psalm.

You shouldn't waste your time with half-assed searches. Look at Num 24:9 or Isa 38:13, both kaf-alef-resh-yod, "like a lion".Fail.

rakovsky wrote: The bottom half of that yod looks like it could be a smudge, which is why I want to see a better photo.
Also, the yod is not lower than the black blot that scrunched the dalet in yadi.

The smudge kludge would wipe half the ink on the fragment. Fail. And the second yod is as high as the letter that follows. I've already indicated this with the underlines in the doctored image I posted. Sorry, another fail.

Score so far:

1. Failed to get "pierced" from a verb that indicates "dug"

2. Failed to explain the presence of the alef

3. Failed to deal with the well-known confusion in the DSS between waw and yod (see for example Dave Washburn, page 3, 3rd paragraph). (Elisha Qimron's book, The Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls)

spin wrote:You shouldn't waste your time with half-assed searches. Look at Num 24:9 or Isa 38:13, both kaf-alef-resh-yod, "like a lion".Fail.

Neither of them were written by David.

I said: Let's see what kind of vocabulary and writing style David has and see what fits in.

This is actually a normal part of Text criticism. Good example: Some scholars think that later chapters in Isaiah were not written by the first chapters' author, because they have a different writing style.

David's writing style is to use Aryeh, and it's not to use Ari.

spin wrote:

rakovsky wrote: The bottom half of that yod looks like it could be a smudge, which is why I want to see a better photo.
Also, the yod is not lower than the black blot that scrunched the dalet in yadi.

The smudge kludge would wipe half the ink on the fragment.

This is why I request finding a better photograph to see how often the yods are drawn down.

Find a good untouched-up photo and circle all the clear yods and waws at the end of words.

spin wrote:Score so far:

1. Failed to get "pierced" from a verb that indicates "dug"

Pierced and Dug are Synonyms.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... saurus/dig
Also, I am ok with gouged as the best translation.
Psalm 40: God gouged David's ears.
1st c. AD: Nails gouged Jesus' hands.

2. Failed to explain the presence of the alef

There are many Hebrew words that are found as having it as an alternate spelling. See my webpage.
How else do you think the LXX got to "dug"?

3. Failed to deal with the well-known confusion in the DSS between waw and yod (see for example Dave Washburn, page 3, 3rd paragraph). (Elisha Qimron's book, The Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls)

Followed Joe's scholarly quote previously about the Waws usually being slightly longer than the yods.

Plenty of gouging action here:

Bulls attack by gouging with horns.
Attack of a lion and a "lion's mouth" uses pointy teeth for gouging.
Being poured out happens to a person after getting gouged.
A sword attacks by gouging.
Horns of unicorns attack by gouging.

Gouging is the context.
"Aryeh" lions are context and explicitly mentioned in Psalm 22.
"Ari" lions are never mentioned by David. It's a different lexicon.

rakovsky wrote:

spin wrote:You shouldn't waste your time with half-assed searches. Look at Num 24:9 or Isa 38:13, both kaf-alef-resh-yod, "like a lion".Fail.

Neither of them were written by David.

You've gotta be kidding me. You have absolutely no evidence David existed let alone wrote a single psalm in the collection. Special pleading is no response. Fail.

rakovsky wrote:

spin wrote:Score so far:

1. Failed to get "pierced" from a verb that indicates "dug"

Pierced and Dug are Synonyms.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... saurus/dig
Also, I am ok with gouged as the best translation.
Psalm 40: God gouged David's ears.
1st c. AD: Nails gouged Jesus' hands.

Jeez, you need spanking for such silliness. We are not dealing with the English language, but with Hebrew. You don't go to an English book of synonyms. You may as well try Qechua for the same relevance. Rather you need clear examples where KRW indicates "pierced" in the specific sense found in the NT example, "pierced" as in what nails do.

2. Failed to explain the presence of the alef

There are many Hebrew words that are found as having it as an alternate spelling.

Conjecture is as good a kludge as anything else.

How else do you think the LXX got to "dug"?

Mispronunciation of kaf-alef-resh-yod by the reader which caused the scribe to fish for meaning.

3. Failed to deal with the well-known confusion in the DSS between waw and yod (see for example Dave Washburn, page 3, 3rd paragraph). (Elisha Qimron's book, The Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls)

Followed Joe's scholarly quote previously about the Waws usually being slightly longer than the yods.

Plain fail. Latching on to Joe's quote is comfortable inadequacy, especially when you ignore most comments that support the waw/yod confusion and cling to the only one that will incidentally help your case. You have no response to the basic issue. Waws and yods were confused in antiquity. Your refusal to deal with this is transparent lack of knowledge coupled with confirmation bias. It's a deadly combination one usually finds with christian apologists.

Your responses to your three fails reinforced the general trend of not doing the necessary work.

spin wrote:

rakovsky wrote:

spin wrote:Score so far:

1. Failed to get "pierced" from a verb that indicates "dug"

Pierced and Dug are Synonyms.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... saurus/dig
Also, I am ok with gouged as the best translation.
Psalm 40: God gouged David's ears.
1st c. AD: Nails gouged Jesus' hands.

Jeez, you need spanking for such silliness. We are not dealing with the English language, but with Hebrew. You don't go to an English book of synonyms.

1. This is unacceptable, undignified language by you.
People should not say that others they are having an academic discussion with "need spanking".
It makes you look bad and low class. If someone uses a common translation that you disagree with and you tell them that they need to be physically harmed, it means that you are relying on comments of physical violence to impose consent, rather than persuasion or force of arguments.

2. We are dealing with both Hebrew and English, because what is in question is the best English word for the Hebrew word Karu that is proposed here. If the Hebrew word most directly means gouge, then since gouge, dig, and pierce are close synonyms, and either word might be used, depending on the context. A shovel pierces the ground, opens the ground, digs the ground, gouges the ground. These are close synonyms.

Close synonyms are a normal part of translation. As are secondary meanings for words. Psalm 40:6 says in the rabbis' JPS translation:
"Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened"
The JPS relies on "opened" being synonymous with gouged, karu.

Numbers 21 says:

Then Israel sang this song: "Spring up, O well! Sing to it!
18 "The well, which the leaders sank, Which the nobles of the people dug[karah], With the scepter and with their staffs."

How exactly does a person "dig" a well with a scepter and a staff? A scepter and a staff are not shovels,
They can only work by sticking their staff in the ground, gouging the ground, that is, piercing the ground.

When evaluating whether "piercing" works for Karu in Psalm 22, we must consider what it would mean that "they" the enemies "gouge (Karu) my hands and feet". Does it mean that they use tiny shovels and dig it out? No, for two reasons:
A) We have the example from Numbers 21 that the objects used are staff and scepters, objects with a long pointy end.
B) In the context, "Karu" must mean that they use the objects in the Psalm to harm the hands and feet. Objects like the lion's "teeth" and unicorns' "horns" are the sharp objects used for attacking in the Psalm.

So in the Psalm, horned Enemies armed with swords (Karah) a man's hands and feet, like people pierced/gouged/opened (karah) wells with long pointy scepters or staffs (Numbers 21), or like God pierced/opened/gouged (karah) David's ears (Psalm 40).
Gouged, Dug out, Pierced, Opened are close English language synonyms, secondary meanings, and reasonable alternatives for the meaning of the Hebrew word karah in these cases. Gouging / Digging someone's arms with swords or horns is piercing their arms with the swords.

My preference is the word "gouge", but piercing is acceptable and a common translation by scholars in this verse. Do not write insults about harming me.