Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

[spin]

Hopefully, you won't seek recourse in English synonyms again, Rakovsky. The wandering about seeking to hit upon a justification for your conclusion, hopping from "dug" to"gouged" and finally onto... wait for it... "pierced" has no methodology. Cherrypicking scholarly comments. Not able to explain the alef. Putting off the scribal evidence which you trumpeted early in this thread. I think you've shown the quality of your case.

[iskander]

Psalms
21
16 ἐξηράνθη ὡσεὶ ὄστρακον ἡ ἰσχύς μου, καὶ ἡ γλῶσσά μου κεκόλληται τῷ λάρυγγί μου, καὶ εἰς χοῦν θανάτου κατήγαγές με.
16 For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-te ... 24&page=21
Amen

[rakovsky]

Hopefully, you won't seek recourse in English synonyms again, Rakovsky. The wandering about seeking to hit upon a justification for your conclusion, hopping from "dug" to"gouged" and finally onto... wait for it... "pierced" has no methodology.

Defining terms based on usage is a normal methodology. Karu is defined as gouging like staffs gouge/pierce/dig the earth (Num 21).

Noting context and using secondary meanings is a normal methodology in translation. The repeated references to enemies armed with a sword, horns, and a lion's jaws puts the word karu in a context of the enemies performing this action on the narrator. The swords, teeth, and horns are gouging his arms and feet. The word for enemies attacking someone with weapons and teeth is "pierced". Teeth pierce flesh, swords pierce an arm. Horns pierce a leg. This is normal speech, and pierce is commonly used in Bible translations for karu.

Do not make low class insulting abusive comments about harming me because you disagree about linguistics.

[rakovsky]

Psalms
21
16 ἐξηράνθη ὡσεὶ ὄστρακον ἡ ἰσχύς μου, καὶ ἡ γλῶσσά μου κεκόλληται τῷ λάρυγγί μου, καὶ εἰς χοῦν θανάτου κατήγαγές με.
16 For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-te ... 24&page=21
Amen

Thanks, hero.

Iskandar or Eskandar is the Eastern variant of the given name Alexander after Alexander the Great, as preserved by various cultures such as Persia (now Iran) and others of the Middle East and Central Asia through works such as the Quran and Iskandarnamah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iskandar

It is nice to hear something sympathetic after Spin's comments.

[JoeWallack]

JW:
Here is the corresponding Hebrew for the offending fragment in modern Hebrew script and the English:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2622.htm

15 טו כַּמַּיִם נִשְׁפַּכְתִּי-- וְהִתְפָּרְדוּ, כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי:
הָיָה לִבִּי, כַּדּוֹנָג; נָמֵס, בְּתוֹךְ מֵעָי.טו I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; {N}
my heart is become like wax; it is melted in mine inmost parts.
טז יָבֵשׁ כַּחֶרֶשׂ, כֹּחִי, וּלְשׁוֹנִי, מֻדְבָּק מַלְקוֹחָי; וְלַעֲפַר-מָוֶת תִּשְׁפְּתֵנִי. 16 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my throat; and Thou layest me in the dust of death.
יז כִּי סְבָבוּנִי, כְּלָבִים: עֲדַת מְרֵעִים, הִקִּיפוּנִי; כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי. 17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.
יח אֲסַפֵּר כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי; הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ, יִרְאוּ-בִי. 18 I may count all my bones; they look and gloat over me.
יט יְחַלְּקוּ בְגָדַי לָהֶם; וְעַל-לְבוּשִׁי, יַפִּילוּ גוֹרָל. 19 They part my garments among them, and for my vesture do they cast lots.
כ וְאַתָּה יְהוָה, אַל-תִּרְחָק; אֱיָלוּתִי, לְעֶזְרָתִי חוּשָׁה. 20 But Thou, O LORD, be not far off; O Thou my strength, hasten to help me.
כא הַצִּילָה מֵחֶרֶב נַפְשִׁי; מִיַּד-כֶּלֶב, יְחִידָתִי. 21 Deliver my soul from the sword; mine only one from the power of the dog.

Note that it is already telling that you/we/they/Bob Dole/The American Public require the letters in modern Hebrew script in order to help distinguish the letters of the offending text.

Regarding your indignation rakovsky, Flint is fluent in ancient Hebrew so he knows that "pierced" is not within the lexical range of the Hebrew word for "dig". He is also fluent in English so he likewise knows that "pierced" is not within the lexical range of "dig" in English. If someone said in a context unrelated to this discussion in Hebrew or English:

"I pierced a well."

or

"Wild animals dug my hands and feet."

they would not understand what you were trying to say. So Flint is a Liar for Jesus. Therefore he has no credibility on the subject and you can not believe anything he says. Unfortunately, for us and the Psalmist, Flint and his ilk wrote the official book. So everything they say must be checked independently.

You likewise claim that the offending word means "pierced" in English but we are giving you the benefit of the doubt. For now. Maybe you are just not up to speed. Or maybe you are a troll.


Joseph

Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? Nahal Hever Fragment

[iskander]

Psalms
21
16 ἐξηράνθη ὡσεὶ ὄστρακον ἡ ἰσχύς μου, καὶ ἡ γλῶσσά μου κεκόλληται τῷ λάρυγγί μου, καὶ εἰς χοῦν θανάτου κατήγαγές με.
16 For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-te ... 24&page=21
Amen

Thanks, hero.

Iskandar or Eskandar is the Eastern variant of the given name Alexander after Alexander the Great, as preserved by various cultures such as Persia (now Iran) and others of the Middle East and Central Asia through works such as the Quran and Iskandarnamah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iskandar

It is nice to hear something sympathetic after Spin's comments.

You have done very well, but I still don't know why you entertain apologists and hard men for nothing worth considering at all.
The psalm speaks of a person under attack by animals and it is a fact that dogs bite!, Do dogs bite like lions or like dogs?.That is the question.
Christianity is one religion based on the Septuagint and Judaism is another religion, period

For example:

17.For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet
Rashi , like a lion, my hands and feet: As though they are crushed in a lion’s mouth, and so did Hezekiah say (in Isa. 38: 13): “like a lion, so it would break all my bones.”

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... rashi=true



The Artscroll English Tanach

22:17
for dogs* have surrounded me; a pack of evildoers has enclosed me, like a lion [ they attack] my hands and my feet.
* 22.17 frenzied mobs of base people surround me, torment me, break my bones like a lion tearing at his prey

.

[John2]

Is the meaning of Ps. 22:16 ultimately affected much by the karu/kari question? The "many dogs/assembly of wicked doers" are either "piercing/gouging/digging" (with their teeth/claws/horns) or otherwise doing something "like a lion" to the psalmist's hands and feet.

[spin]

Is the meaning of Ps. 22:16 ultimately affected much by the karu/kari question? The "many dogs/assembly of wicked doers" are either "piercing/gouging/digging" (with their teeth/claws/horns) or otherwise doing something "like a lion" to the psalmist's hands and feet.

My guess is the only interest in Ps 22.16 is its use as a "prophecy" regarding Jesus. If it weren't of christian significance this discussion would probably never have started. It's like other "prophecies" regarding Jesus. Micah 5:2 talks of Bethlejem being so "little among the thousands of Israel" and in Mt 2:6 it suddenly ends up "by no means least", attempting to give Bethlehem more kudos by twiddling with the meaning. I'm pretty sure you'll get a song and dance over this non-prophecy. And so on. They were not very accurate back then.

[rakovsky]

JW:
Here is the corresponding Hebrew for the offending fragment in modern Hebrew script and the English:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2622.htm

15 טו כַּמַּיִם נִשְׁפַּכְתִּי-- וְהִתְפָּרְדוּ, כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי:
הָיָה לִבִּי, כַּדּוֹנָג; נָמֵס, בְּתוֹךְ מֵעָי.טו I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; {N}
my heart is become like wax; it is melted in mine inmost parts.
טז יָבֵשׁ כַּחֶרֶשׂ, כֹּחִי, וּלְשׁוֹנִי, מֻדְבָּק מַלְקוֹחָי; וְלַעֲפַר-מָוֶת תִּשְׁפְּתֵנִי. 16 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my throat; and Thou layest me in the dust of death.
יז כִּי סְבָבוּנִי, כְּלָבִים: עֲדַת מְרֵעִים, הִקִּיפוּנִי; כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי. 17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.
יח אֲסַפֵּר כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי; הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ, יִרְאוּ-בִי. 18 I may count all my bones; they look and gloat over me.
יט יְחַלְּקוּ בְגָדַי לָהֶם; וְעַל-לְבוּשִׁי, יַפִּילוּ גוֹרָל. 19 They part my garments among them, and for my vesture do they cast lots.
כ וְאַתָּה יְהוָה, אַל-תִּרְחָק; אֱיָלוּתִי, לְעֶזְרָתִי חוּשָׁה. 20 But Thou, O LORD, be not far off; O Thou my strength, hasten to help me.
כא הַצִּילָה מֵחֶרֶב נַפְשִׁי; מִיַּד-כֶּלֶב, יְחִידָתִי. 21 Deliver my soul from the sword; mine only one from the power of the dog.

Note that it is already telling that you/we/they/Bob Dole/The American Public require the letters in modern Hebrew script in order to help distinguish the letters of the offending text.

Regarding your indignation rakovsky, Flint is fluent in ancient Hebrew so he knows that "pierced" is not within the lexical range of the Hebrew word for "dig". He is also fluent in English so he likewise knows that "pierced" is not within the lexical range of "dig" in English. If someone said in a context unrelated to this discussion in Hebrew or English:

"I pierced a well."

or

"Wild animals dug my hands and feet."

they would not understand what you were trying to say.

"I gouged a well into the earth with my staff."

The people in Num 21 gouged a well with poles. That is a special kind of digging. Strongs dictionary specifies boring a hole. Gouging IMO works best.

"Wild animals gouged my hands".

People would understand what I meant to say.

Using synonyms is common in translation.
Why does it not say God dug his ears in psalm 40? Did God use a shovel? That is why the jps uses synonyms and says open.
" I opened a well"?
People would not understand what you meant.
So translators understand you need to use synonyms and look at context.

Iskander quoted a rabbinical text saying they attacked like a lion. They had long sharp weapons for piercing in their attacks.


They are not literal unicorns, horns and boring tools
They are humans with piercing weapons.

[iskander]

Hello rakovsky , Very good again , excellent.

I go with Beowulf on this one:
Re: Baa Baa Black Sheep and Baa Baa White Sheep
by beowulf » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:25 am
Yes, It is my question, but it is not rhetorical. The Eastern church still uses the Septuagint .Christianity was based on the Septuagint .

Christianity and Judaism are two completely different religions. Christianity should use the Septuagint as their scripture , and Judaism is welcome to use the later MT.

This arrangement is good for Christians and for Judaism and it would replicate the independent status that the Noble Quran enjoys among the religions of the book.


Three holy books. One for each religion: the Septuagint for Christians, the MT for Judaism and the Quran for Muslims; each religion is free to believe the holy writ without having to justify to the other religions and without the risk of causing offence.

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