Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

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Secret Alias wrote:No it just means that the transliterated Hebrew name was treated as a Greek name.
As if it explains the inflected usage or even allows it, unless there is actually a different, longer non-Hebrew name being used here. This manuscript, with its different forms, requires the hypothesis of a Greek name, with its own particular Greek spelling, which is being inflected. There are a few known candidates here, none of which is a two-letter Hebrew word. (One of them is brilliantly simple as an explanation too.)

We can just forget about using this as evidence for the hypothesis (even if this explanation were plausible, which it isn't).
Secret Alias wrote:These are all orthodox manuscripts. The question is IC still is this a short form or a full name. I am not proposing the Catholics started Christianity. They clearly modified manuscripts of a much earlier tradition. I do not subscribe to a 2nd century origin for Christianity.
This does make sense, but it would also mean that this 'example' manuscript doesn't exactly do what we might have wanted it to do, which is to identify people who actually did have an "IC" name for their figure based on the Hebrew word. The scribes weren't such people. The scribes had a longer Greek word that they were abbreviating, using the first and last letter, depending on the inflected form, in a way completely analogous to the same treatment of kyrios, etc.

We're basically looking for the "transitional fossil" of a people who used the Greek letters iota-sigma as a nomen sacrum representing a Hebrew word, but the examples provided are of the developed species of people who had a Greek name that they were inflecting for the different first-and-last letter abbreviations (... otherwise generally just called "Jesus" people ...).

I would like to be able to find evidence for your hypothesis in the Greek manuscripts, but so far it isn't there.
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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

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I'm a little confused... When I look up P66 on the CSNMT website (http://www.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_P66), it says it's only a fragmentary text. Yet according to this thread and wiki, P66 is a "near complete" copy of the gospel of John? What am I doing wrong?
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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

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toejam wrote:I'm a little confused... When I look up P66 on the CSNMT website (http://www.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_P66), it says it's only a fragmentary text. Yet according to this thread and wiki, P66 is a "near complete" copy of the gospel of John? What am I doing wrong?
It's a fragmentary, near complete copy of the Gospel of John obviously. :D
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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

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^By "fragmentary", the CNSMT site says it only includes four verses from John, yet wiki and SecretAlias' post seems to show that it's a much larger text... I'm confused??
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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

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toejam wrote:^By "fragmentary", the CNSMT site says it only includes four verses from John, yet wiki and SecretAlias' post seems to show that it's a much larger text... I'm confused??
http://legacy.earlham.edu/~seidti/iam/tc_pap66.html
This papyrus codex consists of 75 leaves and 39 unidentified fragments and was probably made up of originally 39 sheets of papyrus, folded and arranged in quires to form 78 leaves and 156 pages...

You can see them individually:

http://www.earlybible.com/manuscripts/p66.html

I can't explain the CSNTM website on this one.
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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

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^OK. Thanks. I'll assume it's a CSNMT error until further notice...
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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

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toejam wrote:CNSMT
toejam wrote:CSNMT
toejam wrote:CSNTM
Dumbass dyslexic :oops: LOL
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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

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I don't see why you can't see that IS is the root form of the nomen sacrum IC. The Catholic or orthodox treated IC as a contracted name. But all theories assume that the nomina sacra went back to uninflected Hebrew forms. Instead of Yahweh I am assuming that Ish is the original form in a manner similar to Hurtado assumes IH was influenced by Chi (life). Everyone assumes that there are several more steps in the development of the nomina sacra. The present form and practice can't have been how they started.
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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

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Secret Alias wrote:I don't see why you can't see that IS is the root form of the nomen sacrum IC. The Catholic or orthodox treated IC as a contracted name. But all theories assume that the nomina sacra went back to uninflected Hebrew forms. Instead of Yahweh I am assuming that Ish is the original form in a manner similar to Hurtado assumes IH was influenced by Chi (life). Everyone assumes that there are several more steps in the development of the nomina sacra. The present form and practice can't have been how they started.
I see the possibility of it being the root form -- I think I've said as much. I just haven't found it clearly instanced in any of the extant manuscripts, which makes it difficult (illogical) to claim that these manuscripts are evidence for the hypothesis. There may be evidence for the hypothesis, and you've pointed to several interesting literary connections. But the manuscripts (such as p66) do not help us decide whether the hypothesis is true or whether some other explanation is true instead (... including the simpler, more economical, by definition, explanation that there is no such Hebrew root form sacred word behind the Greek nomen sacrum found in the mss. ... and that it's "Jesus" all the way down).
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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

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You can start to see a different system must have originally been in place when you start thinking about the present identification of kurios for Jesus. That can't have been original. That can't have been found in Justin's manuscripts nor Marcion's. Our system is neo-Valentinian
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