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Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:46 pm
by Secret Alias
Matthias Flacius Illyricus (Latin; Croatian: Matija Vlačić Ilirik) (3 March 1520 – 11 March 1575) was a Lutheran reformer from Istria, present day Croatia claimed that Osiander shared his master's interest in the Pentagrammaton - https://books.google.com/books?id=0fl3O ... on&f=false

Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:56 pm
by Secret Alias
Some more context:
Luther soon continued his pertinent literary activity during the first months of 1543. In preparation for On the Jews he had read, in addition to Margaritha's The Whole Jewish Faith, the Victoria adversus impios Hebraeos (Victory over the godless Hebrews) by Salvagus Porchetus, a Carthusian monk from Genoa, which had been written about 1300, and he had made critical marginal notes in it.42 In both books he found Jewish legends of how Jesus had craftily gotten control of the Schem Hamphoras (the ineffable Name of God, derived from cabalistic speculation about the letters in Exod. 14:19 - 21) and thereby had been able to perform miracles until he was exposed and executed. Luther took issue with this vilification of Jesus and also with a criticism of the differing genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke, which was contained in the Jewish response to Against the Sabbatarians, by writing On the Tetragrammaton ... Andreas Osiander in Nuremberg, who was otherwise also favorably disposed toward the Jews, had a different opinion of the cabala and therefore criticized On the Tetragrammaton. Melanchthon made sure that his criticism did not reach Luther for he would presumably have reacted harshly to it. https://books.google.com/books?id=REdhA ... 22&f=false

Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:02 pm
by Secret Alias
Some people claim it was Castellio who discovered the connection with Ish:
This consideration, it is apprehended, were alone sufficient to condemn the singular notion of Osiander, that it is derived from JEHow AH, with the first letter of the word Shiloh interposed, in order to render the (nomen tetragrammaton) incommunicable appellation of the Supreme Being effable. Equally inadmissible, on the same account, is the opinion of Castalio, that it is compounded of two Hebrew words which signify “the man Jehovah,” or, the incarnate Deity. (1840) https://books.google.com/books?id=HU1gA ... 22&f=false

Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:31 pm
by Secret Alias
Others that it was Osiander and Castellio:
The name Jesus, say Castalio and Osiander, Heb. יהשׁוה may possibly signify " the man Jehovah," or Jehovah incarnate, God in human nature. It is compounded of יהוה and אּישׁ : the letter שׁ being interposed from the latter word, the two others י and אּ being rejected as serviles, and therefore added or rejected at pleasure. This name is given at full length by Moses to the Angel Jehovah who condocted the Isnelites through the wilderness, *' The Lord is a man of war," nonbo v*M mrr. The ome name is given likewise at length in the exclamation of Eve, in which she expressed a hope that her son was the promised deliverer mrr mc VTH "mp ... Pfeiffer is of opinion, with the generality of commentators, that the name must be derived from jro*, to save, and he rejects therefore the above derivation, which is given with little variation from Osiander, Reuchlin, and Scbastianus Castalio. See the whole Dissertation de nomine Jesu— l'feifleri dubia vexata, p. 1154, particularly Th. 6 to 18 inclusive. https://books.google.com/books?id=6qkGA ... 22&f=false

Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:55 am
by Secret Alias
From a footnote in Shlomo Pines:
In other words, if one admits that the long story of the Passion quoted in the Tathbit reflects a Docetic view of the crucifixion of Jesus, another conceivable, though perhaps far-fetched, explanation of the fact that in this story the word al-Rajul, the man, is invariably substituted for the name Jesus might be based on the occasional use in the New Testament of the expressions ho anthropos, ho homos ho anthropos, ho anthropos ekeinos, etc., to denote Jesus. A well known instance of this linguistic usage is Jn. 19:5 idou ho anthropos, ecce homo, cf. W.F. Arndt and F. Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Chicago 1957, s.v. anthropos, 4, b, p. 168. Acts 5, 28 may be added to the examples cited there. However, in my opinion, if it is to be credible, this explanation must be supplemented by the supposition that all mention of the name Jesus was deliberately removed from a story of the Passion in which the above-mentioned linguistic usage may have been much in evidence to start with. This could have been done in order to render the text palatable for cAbd al-Jabbar and other Orthodox Muslims. The connection, if any, of this linguistic usage with the use in Hebrew and other Jewish languages of the expression oto ha-ish (that man), employed by persons who, out of antaganism to Christianity, wish to avoid uttering the name Jesus could be made an object of investigation. As has been pointed out by J. Maier (in Jesus von Nazareth in der talmudischen Oberlieferung, (in Jesus von Nazareth in der talmudischen Oberlieferung, Darmstadt 1978, p. 87ff), a passage in the midrash Yalaut Shim'oni, usually omitted in the printed editions of this work, contains the expression oto ha'ish. The passage is attributed to Eliezer, who lived in the third century, but Maier considers that it is a later interpolation. I believe, pace Maier, that everything points to this expression being used in the passage to H«igim> Jesus. On oto ha-ish see also Y. Liebes, "Jonah as the Messiah ben Joseph" (in Hebrew), Jerusalem Studies in Jewish Thought, m, (1983-1984), p. 300
Pine's point is most interesting and perhaps closes the circle on our investigation. One of the oldest rabbinic sources - R Eliezar - and his reference to oto ha'ish. It is worth noting that several Jewish studies of the New Testament have applied this allusion to Jesus as 'that man' or 'a man' such as the Good Samaritan story:
Jesus as a man Gr. anthropos tis, lit. "a certain man," possibly Jesus himself. The use of the third person here might reflect Heb./Aram. hahugavra; oto ha. ish used euphemistically by a speaker or writer when telling of a misfortune. https://books.google.com/books?id=_qSWL ... 22&f=false
Indeed in Jewish writings generally - as we read in a scholarly discussion of a work of a famous 19th century Hasidic rabbi - references to 'Jesus' per se are:
Uncharacteristic of Hasidic literature more generally, Bornstein mentions Jesus (never by name, only by the traditional code name 'oto ha-ish, or that man), sometimes under the veil of referring to 'oto ha-ish as Esau (Esau is traditionally understood to be the patriarch of Edom, the empire of Christendom) and offers some novel interpretations of his life and role in the ultimate redemption.17 Bornstein was no free-thinker. As a Hasidic master, he was fully absorbed in the traditional depiction of Jesus as “the defiled one,” even a demonic figure, as portrayed in the anonymous Toldot Yeshu and later literature. The biblical Esau, sometimes the biblical occasion for the biblical occasion for Bornstein's comments about 'oto ha-ish, is a clear reference to Christianity which had, from the rabbinic period onward, been linked to the empire of Esau / Edom. https://books.google.com/books?id=6zokB ... 22&f=false
In this literature associated with https://books.google.com/books?id=BKaQB ... 22&f=false. More on the history of this phenomenon
A parallel equation is expressed in another talmudic passage (Gittin 56b), in which three enemies of Judaism are listed: Titus, Balaam, and a "Jewish transgressor" (poshea yisrael). The three were asked by a prospective proselyte to give him their opinions of the Jewish people. Titus, a personifier of pagan hostility, expressed opposition to the Torah as a burdensome theology. He also offered pragmatic information about the expediency of anti-Semitism as a vehicle to political power. Balaam, in this passage, is cast in the role of the early Gentile church, which openly expressed its anti-Jewish enmity. The "Hebrew transgressor" is the code name for the typical Hebrew Christian, who professes friendship to Jews but ridicules rabbinic Judaism. He, too, is labeled a rasha (Sanhedrin 105a). The so-called Letter of Rabban Yochanan b. Zaccai refers to Jesus as a rasha meisit ("inciter") and to Paul as a rasha uposhea ("transgressor"). This letter, allegedly written by Rabban Yochanan b. Zaccai, is dated Kislev 6, 3813 (52 C.E.). The reference to historical events of the post-Temple era makes it clear that the letter in its present form is of later origin. An examination of the letter reveals that it originally based all its contentions solely on biblical verses, without resorting to reveals that it originally based all its contentions solely on biblical verses, without resorting to rabbinic quotations. This points to the antiquity of the original document. This part of the letter was written in a lucid biblical style. We may assume that it was published by the end of the first century to counteract an intensive Christian proselytizing campaign. At a later period, possibly in the third century, numerous Cabalist passages were interpolated to lend greater emphasis to the author's admonitions. Such expression as nachash ha kadmoni ("the primeval serpent") and zuhamo shel nachash ("the impurity of the serpent"), which appear in this letter, were introduced into the Talmud by third-century Amoraim (Sanhedrin 29a, Avoda Zara 22b). The expanded letter could have been republished in the third century, due to the continued spread of Christianity in Palestine and the diaspora. With the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire at the beginning of the fourth century, the circulation of such a letter would have been too risky an undertaking. It is possible, of course, that the letter was first republished in the Islamic era, in the seventh century or later, when it was safe for Jews in Moslem countries to urge their fellow Jews in Christian countries to resist missionary blandishments and threats. original part of the letter and dates the application of this term to the early part of the Christian era. In the post-talmudic literature a new name for the founder of Christianity was widely adopted — oto ha-ish ("that man"). This name was popularized by a book entitled Maase shel Oto ha-Ish . The book is assumed to have been written in the tenth century. The origin of the name may possibly be traced to the passage in Gittin (56b) which was quoted above. [Bloch The Biblical and Historical Background of the Jewish Holy Days p. 34]
So Bloch claims that oto ha'ish is post-Talmudic resulting from people copying the epithet in Gittin 56b. But how does he explain the reference to Jesus in this way ascribed to R Eliezar in the Yalaut Shim'oni? The collection was thirteenth century but certainly draws upon older material.

Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:27 am
by Secret Alias
So what is Bloch's thinking here? Apparently it is that oto ha-ish was an attempt to censor the original appearance of yeshu in the same manuscripts. 'that man' is judged to be an attempt to obscure the proper name of Jesus - viz. Ishu. But let's hold on for a moment. Time to think like a rabbi.
Samson of Ostropol,Sefer ha-Karnayyim, 1702, 2v.Ha-ish (the man) has the numerical value 316, which equals the numerical value of the name Yeshu, Jesus. Moreover, ha-ish is a clear allusion to the common Jewish designation of Jesus as oto ha-ish.
So the 'switch' occurred according to gematria. But was it 'ha-ish' for yeshu or yeshu for ha-ish? Outside of the rabbinic tradition the specific form yeshu is unknown. The Marcionite identification of him as 'the stranger' might well be related to 'that man' or better yet 'a man.' We shouldn't be so quick to assume that yeshu is the original form.

Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:33 am
by Secret Alias
I think we have finally understood where Osiander got the idea that Jesus = ish. The rabbinic understanding of him as ha-ish. He was closer to the Jews and Jewish culture than any of his predecessors. He must have taken the identification seriously.

Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:46 am
by Secret Alias
Curious implication for the original of the Samaritan sect of the Dositheans (Dusa):

The word for "Jesus" in Judeo- Italian is duish, from the Hebrew oto ha-ish, "that man." A variant of this exists in Yiddish as well, oyso (ha)- ish, along with toluy, "hanging one." Certain body parts are typically taboo.

A similar example of interference may be found in various thirteenth- and fourteenth-century documents, for instance, in the cases of Duissa—zn Italian feminine adaptation of Duish [= °oto °ish (Jesus)]— the name that the Jews of Lucca gave to the Holy Virgin, according to the Inquisition records, and in the transference of the grammatical gender, for instance "lo nefesh suo" in the Hatalat Klalot inserted in a thirteenth-century Mahazor, and published by F. Scazzocchio.20

Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:49 am
by Secret Alias
For those who want to know - oto ha'ish = אותו האיש

Re: Did Christianity Emerge From the Two Powers Tradition?

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:58 am
by Secret Alias
This author - in the course of arguing AGAINST the identification of all oto ha'ish references in the Babylonian Talmud - seems to acknowledge that at least a few oto ha'ish references in the Jerusalem Talmud COULD be Jesus references and thus making the case the phenomenon was not post-Talmudic:

http://parsha.blogspot.com/2009/04/does ... ng-to.html

Let's look at the sources:

The Midrash
Again, we revisit the Mechilta – the midrash on the book of Exodus from the period of the Mishnah. This represents the earliest mention of the Four Sons as a midrashic entity.

מכילתא דרבי ישמעאל בא – מסכתא דפסחא פרשה יח
והיה כי ישאלך בנך מחר (שמות יג:יד)
מה העדות והחקים והמשפטים אשר צוה ה’ אותנו (דברים ו:כ)
נמצאת אומר ארבעה בנים הם אחד חכם ואחד רשע ואחד תם ואחד שאינו יודע לשאול.
חכם מה הוא אומר? מה העדות והחוקים והמשפטים אשר צוה ה’ אלהינו אותנו
אף אתה פתח לו בהלכות הפסח אין מפטירין אחר הפסח אפיקומן.
טיפש מה הוא אומר? מה זאת? ואמרת אליו בחוזק יד הוציאנו ה’ ממצרים מבית עבדים.
רשע מה הוא אומר? מה העבודה הזאת לכם.
ולפי שהוציא את עצמו מן הכלל
אף אתה הוציאו מן הכלל ואמור לו בעבור זה עשה ה’ לי בצאתי ממצרים (שמות יג ח) לי ולא לך אלו היית שם לא היית נגאל.
ושאינו יודע לשאול את פתח לו
שנא’ והגדת לבנך ביום ההוא וגו’.
And It Shall Be When Thy Son Asks You Tomorrow (in the time to come) (Exodus 13:14)
What Mean the Testimonies and the Statutes, etc. (Deut. 6.20). You find that you have to say: There are four types of sons: the wise, the simpleton, the wicked, and the one who does not know enough to ask.
The wise—what does he say? “What mean the testimonies and the statutes and the ordinances which the Lord our God hath commanded us?” (Deut. 6.20). You explain to him, in turn, the laws of the Passover and tell him that the company is not to disband immediately after partaking of the paschal lamb. There should follow Epikomon.5
The simpleton— what does he say? “What is this? And thou shall say to him: By strength of hand the Lord brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage.” (Ex. 13:14)
The wicked one—what does he say? “What mean you by this service?” (Ex. 12.26). Because he excludes himself from the group, You also should exclude him from the group, and say unto him: “It is because of that which the Lord did for me” (v. 8)—for me but not for you. Had you been there, you would not have been redeemed.
As for him who does not know enough to ask, you should begin and explain to him. For it is said: “And you shall tell your son in that day” (v. 8).

The Talmud Yerushalmi
תלמוד ירושלמי פסחים פרק י הלכה ד (לז:ד)
תני ר’ חייה כנגד ארבע’ בני’ דיברה תור’ בן חכם בן רשע בן טיפש בן שאינו יודע לשאל
בן חכם מהו אומ’ מה העדות והחקים והמשפטי’ אשר צוה יי’ אלהינו אותנו
אף אתה אמור לו בחוזק יד הוציאנו יי’ ממצרים מבית עבדים
בן רשע מהו אומר מה העבודה הזאת לכם מה הטורח הזה שאתם מטריחין עלינו בכל שנה ושנה
מכיון שהוציא את עצמו מן הכלל אף אתה אמור לו בעבור זה עשה יי’ לי
לי עשה לאותו האיש לא עשה אילו היה אותו האיש במצרים לא היה ראוי להיגאל משם לעולם
טיפש מהו אומר מה זאת
אף את למדו הילכות הפסח שאין מפטירין אחר הפסח אפיקימון שלא יהא עומד מחבורה זו ונכנס לחבורה אחרת
בן שאינו יודע לשאל את פתח לו תחילה
Rabbi Hiya taught [in a baraita]: The Torah spoke with regard to four sons: the wise son, the wicked son, the foolish son, and the son who does not know how to ask.
The wise son, what does he say? ” What mean the testimonies and the statutes and the ordinances which the Lord our God hath commanded us? So you say to him: “With a strong hand the Lord brought us out from Egypt from the house of bondage.”
The wicked son, what does he say? ” “What mean you by this service?” (Ex. 12.26). What is this bother that you have troubled us with each and every year? Because he excludes himself from the group, you also should say to him: “It is because of that which the Lord did for me” (v. 8)—for me but He did not do for “that man” (אותו האיש). Had “that man” (אותו האיש) been in Egypt, he would not have been fit to be redeemed from there ever.
The foolish son: What did he say? [He asked:] What is this?
So you should teach him the laws of Pesah: that one does not do afikomen after eating the Passover sacrifice – that one does not remove from one group that eats together the Pesah offering to another.
[With regard to] the son who did not know how to ask. You begin for him.

The Passover Hagaddah (Ashkenazic version)
בָּרוּךְ הַמָּקוֹם, בָּרוּךְ הוּא. בָּרוּךְ שֶׁנָּתַן תּוֹרָה לְעַמּוֹ יִשְׂרָאֵל, בָּרוּךְ הוּא. כְּנֶגֶד אַרְבָּעָה בָנִים דִּבְּרָה תּוֹרָה. אֶחָד חָכָם, וְאֶחָד רָשָׁע, וְאֶחָד תָּם, וְאֶחָד שֶׁאֵינוֹ יוֹדֵעַ לִשְׁאוֹל.
חָכָם מָה הוּא אוֹמֵר? מַה הָעֵדוֹת וְהַחֻקִּים וְהַמִשְׁפָּטִים אֲשֶׁר צִוָּה יי אֱלֹהֵינוּ אֶתְכֶם? וְאַף אַתָּה אֱמָר לוֹ כְּהִלְכוֹת הַפֶּסַח: אֵין מַפְטִירִין אַחַר הַפֶּסַח אֲפִיקוֹמָן.
רָשָׁע מָה הוּא אוֹמֵר? מָה הָעֲבֹדָה הַזֹּאת לָכֶם? לָכֶם – וְלֹא לוֹ. וּלְפִי שֶׁהוֹצִיא אֶת עַצְמוֹ מִן הַכְּלָל כָּפַר בְּעִקָּר. וְאַף אַתָּה הַקְהֵה אֶת שִנָּיו וֶאֱמֹר לוֹ: בַּעֲבוּר זֶה עָשָׂה יי לִי בְּצֵאתִי מִמִּצְרָיִם. לִי – וְלֹא לוֹ. אִילּוּ הָיָה שָׁם, לֹא הָיָה נִגְאָל.
תָּם מָה הוּא אוֹמֵר? מַה זֹּאת? וְאָמַרְתָּ אֵלָיו: בְּחֹזֶק יָד הוֹצִיאָנוּ יי מִמִּצְרָיִם, מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים.
וְשֶׁאֵינוֹ יוֹדֵעַ לִשְׁאוֹל – אַתְּ פְּתַח לוֹ, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: וְהִגַּדְתָּ לְבִנְךָ בַּיוֹם הַהוּא לֵאמֹר, בַּעֲבוּר זֶה עָשָׂה יי לִי בְּצֵאתִי מִמִּצְרָיִם.
Blessed is God, Who gave the Torah to His people Israel. Blessed is He. The Torah speaks about four sons: one who is wise and one who is contrary; one who is sim­ple and one who does not even know how to ask a ques­tion.
The wise son asks: “What is the meaning of the rules, laws and customs which the Eternal our God has commanded us?”
You shall explain to him all the laws of Passover, to the very last detail about the Afikoman.
The wicked son asks: “What is the meaning of this service to you?”
Saying you, he excludes himself, and because he excludes himself from the group, he denies a basic principle (God).
You may therefore tell him plainly: “Because of what the Eternal did for me when I came forth from Egypt” I do this. For me and not for him; had he been there, he would not have been redeemed.
The simple son asks: “What is this?”
To him you shall say: “With a strong hand the Eternal brought us out of Egypt, from the house of bondage.”
As for the son who does not even know how to ask a question, you must begin for him, as it is written in the Bible, “You shall tell your child on that day: This is done because of that which the Eternal did for me when I came forth out of Egypt.."

Yes I think this is an example of an early identification of the Christian identification of Jesus as the Ish (Exodus 15) that led the Israelites out of Egypt. The identification of the 'wicked son' with Christians is established - https://books.google.com/books?id=vZjIA ... ah&f=false