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Re: Adv Marc Books 4 and Five and Justin Martyr

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:20 am
by Secret Alias
I think you need the order

1. Justin (fl. under Antoninus Pius)
2. Clement of Alexandria (fl. under Commodus)
3. Irenaeus (fl. under Septimius Severus)

to make sense of Christian history. Justin never identifies Christianity as 'the true philosophy' as far as I know. This comes about with Clement and Irenaeus represents the appropriation of this claim away from the tradition (or 'school') of St Mark as Clement would have referred to it. I can't help think again that 'Marcion' is substituted for 'Justin' throughout Adversus Marcionem because Clement is the real target. Clement and Justin agree that Jesus was the divine 'man' who visited the ancient Israelites. I see Justin as a philosopher who happened to accept the 'oracles' of the gospel (much like Philo before him with respect to the Pentateuch). Clement is the first to identify the Judeo-Christian tradition as a 'philosophy' - indeed 'the true philosophy' - and Irenaeus, assuming that this was true, invents a 'tradition' rooted in Rome as the true diadoche of the apostles necessarily reducing all rivals (including Clement's own diadoche of St Mark) as 'heresies' or sects.

I wonder whether the controversy over the claim of Christianity being 'the true philosophy' is at the root of Irenaeus's monarchian obsession. We have to remember Celsus also wrote at this time and attacks the claim of Christianity that it knows the 'true Logos.' This seems to be related to the 'true philosophy' claim of Clement. Celsus says that there is one logos from the beginning etc. Droge connects Celsus usage of the terminology to its frequent appearance in Justin - https://books.google.com/books?id=R0A4H ... ne&f=false

To this end we have to wonder again whether 'everything came down to Justin' because of the contemporary nexus of debates over Christianity. If you could repurpose Justin as a spokesman against dualism (perhaps because he was so intimately associated with the concept of the 'true logos' and thus monism) you could turn around Justin's testimony against Clement who posited a 'true philosophy' but did not - in Irenaeus's estimation - represent the true diadoche of Christianity. Justin was implicitly (although it is important to note the claim is never made explicit) a witness for the Roman 'headquartering' of the true philosophy.

Re: Adv Marc Books 4 and Five and Justin Martyr

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:08 pm
by Secret Alias
And using Justin against Clement might make sense given that Clement is associated with the 'two logoi' theory. Clement clearly distinguishes between 'God' in his essence and manifest in his 'power.' There is a second Logos who was originally manifest in the 'bosom' of the Father. https://books.google.com/books?id=GNCwC ... ia&f=false Many of the ideas agree with the various 'heresies' so Irenaeus may well have constructed a heretical text in Justin's name so as to distinguish between the alleged 'correct belief' of Justin - namely 'that there is one true logos' against the implications of Clement's system where there are two logoi (and thus, at least potentially, a logos of the gospel and another logos associated with the Pentateuch).

Re: Adv Marc Books 4 and Five and Justin Martyr

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:09 pm
by Secret Alias
I can't help but think that Celsus comes after even Irenaeus (that he knows of Irenaeus's writings and basically approves of them):

1. Justin (fl. under Antoninus Pius)
2. Clement of Alexandria (fl. under Commodus)
3. Irenaeus (fl. under Septimius Severus)
4. Celsus (fl under the sons of Septimius)

Re: Adv Marc Books 4 and Five and Justin Martyr

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:30 pm
by Secret Alias
Indeed the general acknowledgement of the existence of two logoi bears an uncanny agreement with the doctrine that Irenaeus has locked horns with. Let us begin with the most explicit statement in Photius about Clement's association with this understanding:
[Clement] is further convicted of monstrous statements about two Words of the Father, the lesser of which appeared to mortals, or rather not even that one, for he writes : "The Son is called the Word, of the same name as" the Word of the Father, but this is not the Word that became flesh, nor even the Word of the Father, but a certain power of God, as it were an efflux from the Word itself, having become mind, pervaded the hearts of men." All this he attempts to support by passages of Scripture
The idea appears throughout the Alexandrian tradition (cf. Origen's Commentary on John: As, then, there are many gods, but to us there is but one God the Father, and many Lords, but to us there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, so there are many Λόγοι, but we, for our part, pray that that one Λόγος may be with us who was in the beginning and was with God, God the Logos' and again '[t]he multitude, therefore, of those who are reputed to believe are disciples of the shadow of the Word, not of the true Word of God which is in the opened heaven etc"). This is even clearer. According to Origen, the Logos (= Christ) was 'in the beginning' and made the Holy Spirit who in turn is the mother of the lesser Logos (= Jesus). Thus the Alexandrian tradition are those who split 'Jesus' and 'Christ':
Thus, if all things were made, as in this passage also, through the Logos, then they were not made by the Logos, but by a stronger and greater than He. And who else could this be but the Father? Now if, as we have seen, all things were made through Him, we have to enquire if the Holy Spirit also was made through Him. It appears to me that those who hold the Holy Spirit to be created, and who also admit that all things were made through Him, must necessarily assume that the Holy Spirit was made through the Logos, the Logos accordingly being older than He (= the Holy Spirit). And he who shrinks from allowing the Holy Spirit to have been made through Christ must, if he admits the truth of the statements of this Gospel, assume the Spirit to be uncreated. There is a third resource besides these two (that of allowing the Spirit to have been made by the Word, and that of regarding it as uncreated), namely, to assert that the Holy Spirit has no essence of His own beyond the Father and the Son. But on further thought one may perhaps see reason to consider that the Son is second beside the Father, He being the same as the Father (addition from Eusebius?), while manifestly a distinction is drawn between the Spirit and the Son in the passage, Matthew 12:32 Whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him, but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, he shall not have forgiveness, either in this world or in the world to come. We consider, therefore, that there are three hypostases, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and at the same time we believe nothing to be uncreated but the Father. We therefore, as the more pious and the truer course, admit that all things were made by the Logos, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was made by the Father through Christ. And this, perhaps, is the reason why the Spirit is not said to be God's own Son. The Only-begotten only is by nature and from the beginning a Son, and the Holy Spirit seems to have need of the Son, to minister to Him His essence, so as to enable Him not only to exist, but to be wise and reasonable and just, and all that we must think of Him as being. All this He has by participation of the character of Christ, of which we have spoken above ... The statement that all things were made by Him, and its seeming corollary, that the Spirit must have been called into being by the Word, may certainly raise some difficulty. There are some passages in which the Spirit is placed above Christ; in Isaiah, for example, Christ declares that He is sent, not by the Father only, but also by the Holy Spirit. Now the Lord has sent Me, He says, Isaiah 48:16 and His Spirit, and in the Gospel He declares that there is forgiveness for the sin committed against Himself, but that for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit there is no forgiveness, either in this age or in the age to come. What is the reason of this? Is it because the Holy Spirit is of more value than Christ that the sin against Him cannot be forgiven? May it not rather be that all rational beings have part in Christ, and that forgiveness is extended to them when they repent of their sins, while only those have part in the Holy Spirit who have been found worthy of it, and that there cannot well be any forgiveness for those who fall away to evil in spite of such great and powerful cooperation, and who defeat the counsels of the Spirit who is in them. When we find the Lord saying, as He does in Isaiah, that He is sent by the Father and by His Spirit, we have to point out here also that the Spirit is not originally superior to the Saviour, but that the Saviour takes a lower place than He in order to carry out the plan which has been made that the Son of God should become man. Should any one stumble at our saying that the Saviour in becoming man was made lower than the Holy Spirit, we ask him to consider the words used in the Epistle to the Hebrews, where Jesus is shown by Paul to have been made less than the angels on account of the suffering of death. We behold Him, he says, who has been made a little lower than the angels, Jesus, because of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour. And this, too, has doubtless to be added, that the creation, in order to be delivered from the bondage of corruption, and not least of all the human race, required the introduction into human nature of a happy and divine power, which should set right what was wrong upon the earth, and that this action fell to the share, as it were, of the Holy Spirit; but the Spirit, unable to support such a task, puts forward the Saviour as the only one able to endure such a conflict. The Father therefore, the principal, sends the Son, but the Holy Spirit also sends Him and directs Him to go before, promising to descend, when the time comes, to the Son of God, and to work with Him for the salvation of men. This He did, when, in a bodily shape like a dove, He flew to Him after the baptism. He remained on Him, and did not pass Him by, as He might have done with men not able continuously to bear His glory. Thus John, when explaining how he knew who Christ was, spoke not only of the descent of the Spirit on Jesus, but also of its remaining upon him. For it is written that John said: John 1:32 He who sent me to baptize said, On whomsoever you shall see the Spirit descending and abiding upon Him, the same is He that baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire. It is not said only, On whomsoever you shall see the Spirit descending, for the Spirit no doubt descended on others too, but descending and abiding on Him. Our examination of this point has been somewhat extended, since we were anxious to make it clear that if all things were made by Him, then the Spirit also was made through the Word, and is seen to be one of the all things which are inferior to their Maker. This view is too firmly settled to be disturbed by a few words which may be adduced to the opposite effect. If any one should lend credence to the Gospel according to the Hebrews, where the Saviour Himself says, My mother, the Holy Spirit took me just now by one of my hairs and carried me off to the great mount Tabor, he will have to face the difficulty of explaining how the Holy Spirit can be the mother of Christ when it was itself brought into existence through the Word. But neither the passage nor this difficulty is hard to explain.
Now to throw a complete twist in this understanding, Origen says that Heracleon's gospel made it explicit that the Logos who was 'in the beginning' did not create the world:
It was, I consider, a violent and unwarranted procedure which was adopted by Heracleon, the friend, as it is said, of Valentinus, in discussing this sentence: All things were made through Him. He excepted the whole world and all that it contains, excluding, as far as his hypothesis goes, from the all things what is best in the world and its contents. For he says that the æon (age), and the things in it, were not made by the Logos; he considers them to have come into existence before the Logos. He deals with the statement, Without Him was nothing made, with some degree of audacity, nor is he afraid of the warning: Proverbs 30:6 Add not to His words, lest He find you out and you prove a liar, for to the Nothing he adds: Of what is in the world and the creation. And as his statements on the passage are obviously very much forced and in the face of the evidence, for what he considers divine is excluded from the all, and what he regards as purely evil is, that and nothing else, the all things, we need not waste our time in rebutting what is, on the face of it, absurd, when, without any warrant from Scripture, he adds to the words, Without Him was nothing made, the further words, Of what is in the earth and the creation.
Now we see Clement's reported tradition in Photius is even closer to Heracleon's. For the Logos that was with god in the beginning did not create the world. Instead it would seem that the lower logos did that.

So the 'through whom' becomes critical to our understanding. For we read in what immediately follows:
In this proposal, which has no inner probability to recommend it, he (Heracleon) is asking us, in fact, to trust him as we do the prophets, or the Apostles, who had authority and were not responsible to men for the writings belonging to man's salvation, which they handed to those about them and to those who should come after. He had, also, a private interpretation of his own of the words: All things were made through Him, when he said that it was the Logos who caused the demiurge to make the world, not, however, the Logos from whom or by whom, but Him through whom, taking the written words in a different sense from that of common parlance. For, if the truth of the matter was as he considers, then the writer ought to have said that all things were made through the demiurge by the Word, and not through the Word by the demiurge. We accept the through whom, as it is usually understood, and have brought evidence in support of our interpretation, while he not only puts forward a new rendering of his own, unsupported by the divine Scripture, but appears even to scorn the truth and shamelessly and openly oppose it. For he says: It was not the Logos who made all things, as under another who was the operating agent, taking the through whom in this sense, but another made them, the Logos Himself being the operating agent. This is not a suitable occasion for the proof that it was not the demiurge who became the servant of the Logos and made the world; but that the Logos became the servant of the demiurge and formed the world. For, according to the prophet David, God spoke and they came into being, He commanded and they were created. For the unbegotten God commanded the first-born of all creation, Colossians 1:15-16 and they were created, not only the world and what is therein, but also all other things, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, for all things were made through Him and unto Him, and He is before all things.
Here you go. You see I am not as stupid as I might seem. Harnack notes that the accusation that Origen had the same system as Clement was referenced by his biographer - https://books.google.com/books?id=o1BGA ... en&f=false Indeed the idea goes back as far as Philo - https://books.google.com/books?id=VA1m1 ... 22&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=Wrhbw ... 22&f=false
Most often symbolized in his thought by the brothers Moses (as logos endiathetos) and Aaron (as logos prophorikos), this doctrine of the two logoi is generally attributed to the Stoics. Kamesar argues that Philo was influenced not only by the doctrine itself but also by an allegorization found in the D-scholia to the Iliad, Greek sources that explain Homeric phrases and myths but also contain later, more developed exegetical material. In the Homeric interpretation, the two logoi are symbolized by two brothers, Otus and Ephialtes, known as the Aloadae, and one brother is associated with learning, the other with nature.
While the Stoics may have been the Greek philosophical 'source' for the idea, the original Jewish ground is the creation of the heavenly man after the image of God. Philo says that this 'first man' (second Logos) was placed in the garden to guard it. The implication seems to be that the distinction between 'Jesus' and 'Christ' in early circles associated with the Gospel of Mark are also a part of this. The heavenly man was somehow slightly inferior to the ultimate heavenly Man. The heavenly man gave Moses the ten commandments but the ultimate heavenly Man the gospel.

Re: Adv Marc Books 4 and Five and Justin Martyr

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:32 pm
by Secret Alias
So the entire Alexandrian tradition since Philo assumes the existence of two logoi - one which was presumably associated with the dispensation of the Law, the other the gospel - and somehow the cross (if we presume that the heretical fixation on 'Jesus' and 'Chrestos' is rooted in the two logoi system) becomes the point at which 'the two became one.' But the idea that Irenaeus took arguments from Justin against the Jews in Books Three, Four and Five of Adversus Marcionem and turned them around against 'Marcion' because he really had in mind Clement and the two logoi doctrine of the tradition of St Mark is at least a working starting point. Justin was co-opted but why? Why couldn't Irenaeus simply write this in his own name? I am wondering if the reason is that Irenaeus wasn't necessarily even a Christian. He might just have been a philosopher 'assigned' to encourage or redesign Christianity in light of a strict monarchian revision - much as we see happen with respect to Samaritanism in the documents preserved by Abu'l Fath. In that case the 'philosopher' tampering with Samaritanism was Alexander of Aphrodisias.

Re: Adv Marc Books 4 and Five and Justin Martyr

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:16 pm
by Secret Alias
Dialogue 69 - Scripture prophesied that they [the Gentiles] would renounce these [vanities], and hope in this Christ. It is thus written: Rejoice, thirsty wilderness: let the wilderness be glad, and blossom as the lily: the deserts of the Jordan shall both blossom and be glad: and the glory of Lebanon was given to it, and the honour of Carmel. And my people shall see the exaltation of the Lord, and the glory of God. Be strong, you careless hands and enfeebled knees. Be comforted, you faint in soul: be strong, fear not. Behold, our God gives, and will give, retributive judgment. He shall come and save us. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall hear. Then the lame shall leap as an hart, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be distinct: for water has broken forth in the wilderness, and a valley in the thirsty land; and the parched ground shall become pools, and a spring of water shall [rise up] in the thirsty land. Isaiah 35:1-7

The spring of living water which gushed forth from God in the land destitute of the knowledge of God, namely the land of the Gentiles, was this Christ, who also appeared in your nation, and healed those who were maimed, and deaf, and lame in body from their birth, causing them to leap, to hear, and to see, by His word. And having raised the dead, and causing them to live, by His deeds He compelled the men who lived at that time to recognise Him. But though they saw such works, they asserted it was magical art. For they dared to call Him a magician, and a deceiver of the people. Yet He wrought such works, and persuaded those who were [destined to] believe in Him; for even if any one be labouring under a defect of body, yet be an observer of the doctrines delivered by Him, He shall raise him up at His second advent perfectly sound, after He has made him immortal, and incorruptible, and free from grief.

Adversus Marcionem 4.10 - The sick of the palsy is healed,281 and that in public, in the sight of the people. For, says Isaiah, "they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God."282 What glory, and what excellency? "Be strong, ye weak hands, and ye feeble knees: "283 this refers to the palsy. "Be strong; fear not."284 Be strong is not vainly repeated, nor is fear not vainly added; because with the renewal of the limbs there was to be, according to the promise, a restoration also of bodily energies: "Arise, and take up thy couch; "and likewise moral courage285 not to be afraid of those who should say, "Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" [2] So that you have here not only the fulfilment of the prophecy which promised a particular kind of healing, but also of the symptoms which followed the cure. In like manner, you should also recognise Christ in the same prophet as the forgiver of sins.

Re: Adv Marc Books 4 and Five and Justin Martyr

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:01 pm
by Secret Alias
Dialogue 28 - Since I bring from the Scriptures and the facts themselves both the proofs and the inculcation of them, do not delay or hesitate to put faith in me, although I am an uncircumcised man; so short a time is left you in which to become proselytes. If Christ's coming shall have anticipated you, in vain you will repent, in vain you will weep; for He will not hear you. 'Break up your fallow ground,' Jeremiah has cried to the people, 'and sow not among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and circumcise the foreskin of your heart.' Jeremiah 4:3 Do not sow, therefore, among thorns, and in untilled ground, whence you can have no fruit. Know Christ; and behold the fallow ground, good, good and fat, is in your hearts. 'For, behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will visit all them that are circumcised in their foreskins; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the sons of Moab. For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in their hearts.' Do you see how that God does not mean this circumcision which is given for a sign? For it is of no use to the Egyptians, or the sons of Moab, or the sons of Edom. But though a man be a Scythian or a Persian, if he has the knowledge of God and of His Christ, and keeps the everlasting righteous decrees, he is circumcised with the good and useful circumcision, and is a friend of God, and God rejoices in his gifts and offerings.

Epistle to the Ephesians (long version) 8 - Be not deceived with strange doctrines, "nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies," and things in which the Jews make their boast. "Old things are passed away: behold, all things have become new." For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Jesus Christ. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word, not spoken, but essential. For He is not the voice of an articulate utterance, but a substance begotten by divine power, who has in all things pleased Him that sent Him.

Adversus Marcionem 4:11 - You have erred also in that declaration of Christ, wherein He seems to make a difference between things new and old. You are inflated about the old bottles, and brain-muddled with the new wine; and therefore to the old (that is to say, to the prior) gospel you have sewed on the patch of your new-fangled heresy. I should like to know in what respect the Creator is inconsistent with Himself. When by Jeremiah He gave this precept, "Break up for yourselves new pastures," does He not turn away from the old state of things? And when by Isaiah He proclaims how "old things were passed away; and, behold, all things, which I am making, are new," does He not advert to a new state of things? We have generally been of opinion that the destination of the former state of things was rather promised by the Creator, and exhibited in reality by Christ, only under the authority of one and the same God, to whom appertain both the old things and the new.

Adversus Marcionem 4.1.6 - But why enlarge, when the Creator by the same prophet foretells the renovation more manifestly and clearly than the light itself? "Remember not the former things, neither consider the things of old" (the old things have passed away, and new things are arising). "Behold, I will do new things, which shall now spring forth." So by Jeremiah: "Break up for yourselves new pastures and sow not among thorns, and circumcise yourselves in the foreskin of your heart."

Adversus Marcionem 1.20.4 - but rather to perpetuate the teaching of the law; because he blames them for maintaining circumcision, and observing times, and days, and months, and years, according to those Jewish ceremonies which they ought to have known were now abrogated, according to the new dispensation purposed by the Creator Himself, who of old foretold this very thing by His prophets. Thus He says by Isaiah: Old things have passed away. "Behold, I will do a new thing." And in another passage: "I will make a new covenant, not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt." In like manner by Jeremiah: Make to yourselves a new covenant, "circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart."
This version of Isaiah 43:19 is very unique and stands very close to 2 Corinthians 5:17 if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! Note that the long version of Ignatius's Epistle to the Magnesians is a forgery. It was added by a later hand.

Consider also what happens when we expand the order of two of our last citations:
Adversus Marcionem 1.20.4 - but rather to perpetuate the teaching of the law; because he blames them for maintaining circumcision, and observing times, and days, and months, and years, according to those Jewish ceremonies which they ought to have known were now abrogated, according to the new dispensation purposed by the Creator Himself, who of old foretold this very thing by His prophets. Thus He says by Isaiah: Old things have passed away. "Behold, I will do a new thing." And in another passage: "I will make a new covenant, not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt." In like manner by Jeremiah: Make to yourselves a new covenant, "circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart." It is this circumcision, therefore, and this renewal, which the apostle insisted on, when he forbade those ancient ceremonies concerning which their very founder announced that they were one day to cease; thus by Hosea: "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast-days, her new moons, and her Sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts."243 So likewise by Isaiah: "The new moons, and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; your holy days, and fasts, and feast-days, my soul hateth."
Adversus Marcionem 4:11 - You have erred also in that declaration of Christ, wherein He seems to make a difference between things new and old. You are inflated about the old bottles, and brain-muddled with the new wine; and therefore to the old (that is to say, to the prior) gospel you have sewed on the patch of your new-fangled heresy. I should like to know in what respect the Creator is inconsistent with Himself. When by Jeremiah He gave this precept, "Break up for yourselves new pastures," does He not turn away from the old state of things? And when by Isaiah He proclaims how "old things were passed away; and, behold, all things, which I am making, are new," does He not advert to a new state of things? We have generally been of opinion that the destination of the former state of things was rather promised by the Creator, and exhibited in reality by Christ, only under the authority of one and the same God, to whom appertain both the old things and the new. That person only does not do a thing when it is not to be done, who has the materials wherewithal to do it if it were to be done. And therefore, since His object in making the comparison was to show that He was separating the new condition of the gospel from the old state of the law, He proved that that from which He was separating His own ought not to have been branded as a separation of things which were alien to each other; for nobody ever unites his own things with things that are alien to them, in order that he may afterwards be able to separate them from the alien things. A separation is possible by help of the conjunction through which it is made. Accordingly, the things which He separated He also proved to have been once one; as they would have remained, were it not for His separation. But still we make this concession, that there is a separation, by reformation, by amplification, by progress; just as the fruit is separated from the seed, although the fruit comes from the seed. So likewise the gospel is separated from the law, whilst it advances from the law----a different thing from it, but not an alien one; diverse, but not contrary. Nor in Christ do we even find any novel form of discourse. Whether He proposes similitudes or refute questions, it comes from the seventy-seventh Psalm. "I will open," says He, "my mouth in a parable" (that is, in a similitude); "I will utter dark problems" (that is, I will set forth questions). If you should wish to prove that a man belonged to another race, no doubt you would fetch your proof from the idiom of his language.

Concerning the Sabbath also I have this to premise, that this question could not have arisen, if Christ did not publicly proclaim the Lord of the Sabbath. Nor could there be any discussion about His annulling the Sabbath, if He had a right to annul it. Moreover, He would have the right, if He belonged to the rival god; nor would it cause surprise to any one that He did what it was right for Him to do. Men's astonishment therefore arose from their opinion that it was improper for Him to proclaim the Creator to be God and yet to impugn His Sabbath. Now, that we may decide these several points first, lest we should be renewing them at every turn to meet each argument of our adversary which rests on some novel institution of Christ, let this stand as a settled point, that discussion concerning the novel character of each institution ensued on this account, because as nothing was as yet advanced by Christ touching any new deity, so discussion thereon was inadmissible; nor could it be retorted, that from the very novelty of each several institution another deity was clearly enough demonstrated by Christ, inasmuch as it was plain that novelty was not in itself a characteristic to be wondered at in Christ, because it had been foretold by the Creator. And it would have been, of course, but right that a new god should first be expounded, and his discipline be introduced afterwards; because it would be the god that would impart authority to the discipline, and not the discipline to the god; except that (to be sure) it has happened that Marcion acquired his very perverse opinions not from a master, but his master from his opinion! All other points respecting the Sabbath I thus rule. If Christ interfered with the Sabbath, He simply acted after the Creator's example; inasmuch as in the siege of the city of Jericho the carrying around the walls of the ark of the covenant for eight days running, and therefore on a Sabbath-day, actually378 annulled the Sabbath, by the Creator's command----according to the opinion of those who think this of Christ in this passage of St. Luke, in their ignorance that neither Christ nor the Creator violated the Sabbath, as we shall by and by show. And yet the Sabbath was actually then broken by Joshua, so that the present charge might be alleged also against Christ. [4] But even if, as being not the Christ of the Jews, He displayed a hatred against the Jews' most solemn day, He was only professedly following381 the Creator, as being His Christ, in this very hatred of the Sabbath; for He exclaims by the mouth of Isaiah: "Your new moons and your Sabbaths my soul hateth."382 Now, in whatever sense these words were spoken, we know that an abrupt defence must, in a subject of this sort, be used in answer to an abrupt challenge.

Re: Adv Marc Books 4 and Five and Justin Martyr

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:23 am
by Secret Alias
I've also developed a rather novel theory about what we might call its 'parallel' allusion to 1 Sam 21 with the gospel of Luke. Is it properly stated that the author 'cites' Luke or - as I would have it - that Luke developed from the author's citation of 1 Sam 21. As such, if I am correct, the development of our gospel of Luke happened after the process of the development of Adversus Marcionem. First the reference. Please tell me whether you think the author knows that the gospel cites 1 Sam 21 or - as I would have it - the author gets the idea himself in the 'gospel harmony version' of Adversus Marcionem associated with Justin. And then at some point when Luke was being created to a large degree from this ur-text the argument made by Justin was incorporated into Luke.

Here is the text of Luke 6:
One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels. 2 Some of the Pharisees asked, “Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” 3 Jesus answered them, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 5 Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” 6 On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. 7 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. 8 But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there. 9 Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?” 10 He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. 11 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus.
Here is Mark 2 and 3:
23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” 25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” 3 Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.” 4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent. 5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesu
s.

In each case the idea seems to be that 1 Samuel 21 has something to do with the Sabbath but it doesn't:
21 [a]David went to Nob, to Ahimelek the priest. Ahimelek trembled when he met him, and asked, “Why are you alone? Why is no one with you?” 2 David answered Ahimelek the priest, “The king sent me on a mission and said to me, ‘No one is to know anything about the mission I am sending you on.’ As for my men, I have told them to meet me at a certain place. 3 Now then, what do you have on hand? Give me five loaves of bread, or whatever you can find.” 4 But the priest answered David, “I don’t have any ordinary bread on hand; however, there is some consecrated bread here—provided the men have kept themselves from women.” 5 David replied, “Indeed women have been kept from us, as usual whenever I set out. The men’s bodies are holy even on missions that are not holy. How much more so today!” 6 So the priest gave him the consecrated bread, since there was no bread there except the bread of the Presence that had been removed from before the Lord and replaced by hot bread on the day it was taken away. 7 Now one of Saul’s servants was there that day, detained before the Lord; he was Doeg the Edomite, Saul’s chief shepherd.


How could so many Christian authors have not noticed that this connection with the Sabbath is totally wrong. Jews cannot bake on the Sabbath so the day that the actions on 1 Samuel 21 fell was the evening before the Sabbath - as Abarbanel notes - not the actual Sabbath. So the entire context is wrong. David did not command his men to eat consecrated bread on the Sabbath. The gospel is plainly wrong.

But that's not the end of matters. Another error which also creeps into the gospel - that Jews 'fasted' on the Sabbath - a common error among pagans of the period, is also reflected in the verse. Read Adversus Marcionem carefully. It begins:

Concerning the Sabbath also I have this to premise, that this question could not have arisen, if Christ did not publicly proclaim the Lord of the Sabbath. Nor could there be any discussion about His destroying the Sabbath (destrueret sabbatum), if He had a right to destroy it (si destruere
deberet). Moreover, He would have the right to destroy it (porro destruere deberet), if He belonged to the rival god; nor would it cause surprise to any one that He did what it was right for Him to do. Men's astonishment therefore arose from their opinion that it was improper for Him to proclaim the Creator to be God and yet to impugn His Sabbath.


Now the specific accusation of Jesus coming as a 'Sabbath destroyer' (sabbati destructor) is a well known appellation attested to by Tertullian in other works. It is not an 'invented' position of the Marcionites but comes straight from an earlier incarnation of the gospel.

Justin makes clear time and time again the Patriarchs including David did not observe the Sabbath. We read for instance:

Dialogue 19 - For if it were necessary, as you suppose, God would not have made Adam uncircumcised would not have had respect to the gifts of Abel when, being uncircumcised, he offered sacrifice and would not have been pleased with the uncircumcision of Enoch, who was not found, because God had translated him. Lot, being uncircumcised, was saved from Sodom, the angels themselves and the Lord sending him out. Noah was the beginning of our race; yet, uncircumcised, along with his children he went into the ark. Melchizedek, the priest of the Most High, was uncircumcised; to whom also Abraham the first who received circumcision after the flesh, gave tithes, and he blessed him: after whose order God declared, by the mouth of David, that He would establish the everlasting priest. Therefore to you alone this circumcision was necessary, in order that the people may be no people, and the nation no nation; as also Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, declares. Moreover, all those righteous men already mentioned, though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses, under whom your nation appeared unrighteous and ungrateful to God, making a calf in the wilderness: wherefore God, accommodating Himself to that nation, enjoined them also to offer sacrifices, as if to His name, in order that you might not serve idols. Which precept, however, you have not observed; nay, you sacrificed your children to demons. And you were commanded to keep Sabbaths, that you might retain the memorial of God. For His word makes this announcement, saying, 'That ye may know that I am God who redeemed you.'


Later in the same text, Justin (or a Catholic editor) admits that Justin's insistence that the Patriarchs before Moses never observed the Sabbath nor engaged in animal sacrifices could be taken to mean that they adhered to a different god from that which gave the Pentateuch:

Accordingly He neither takes sacrifices from you nor commanded them at first to be offered because they are needful to Him, but because of your sins. For indeed the temple, which is called the temple in Jerusalem, He admitted to be His house or court, not as though He needed it, but in order that you, in this view of it, giving yourselves to Him, might not worship idols. And that this is so, Isaiah says: 'What house have ye built Me? saith the Lord. Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool.' "But if we do not admit this, we shall be liable to fall into foolish opinions, as if it were not the same God who existed in the times of Enoch and all the rest, who neither were circumcised after the flesh, nor observed Sabbaths, nor any other rites, seeing that Moses enjoined such observances; or that God has not wished each race of mankind continually to perform the same righteous actions: to admit which, seems to be ridiculous and absurd. Therefore we must confess that He, who is ever the same, has commanded these and such like institutions on account of sinful men, and we must declare Him to be benevolent, foreknowing, needing nothing, righteous and good. But if this be not so, tell me, sir, what you think of those matters which we are investigating." [Dialogue 22, 23]


But did the historical Justin really believe this 'compromise position' that God allowed the Jews for a while to sacrifice because of their sinfulness? I don't think so. This is the editor's hand. The original position of Justin was indeed that the god who the Patriarchs knew never instituted animal sacrifice, circumcision or Sabbath veneration.

The important thing to remember is that we hear the two powers tradition clearly argue that God only gave the ten commandments (which contain no reference to circumcision, animal sacrifice and only says 'remember the Sabbath'). This absolutely minimalist position is known from the rabbinic literature.

Re: Adv Marc Books 4 and Five and Justin Martyr

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:47 am
by Secret Alias
So just to reflect. Justin (or a later editor) originally confessed that it was 'possible' to view his interpretation of the end of the Sabbath rules to mean that there were two gods (one of the Patriarchs and another who established the Law) but of course he adds 'that's not what I meant.' https://books.google.com/books?id=fB34U ... th&f=false

So once again the opinion reflected in Adversus Marcionem (i.e. Jesus's 'destruction' of the Sabbath means he was another God other than the god of the Law) is found in Justin's writings.

But there is still something odd about the gospel narrative. Why for instances are the disciples depicted 'rubbing corn' and eating it rather than just having a sandwich on the Sabbath? The answer is clearly that the a specific commandment other than Sabbath veneration was originally in the mind of the evangelist creating the narrative. Ephrem using another gospel and responding to contemporary Marcionite criticism makes this plain:
Behold your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.1 But our Lord had instructed them in advance, and trained them in the truth of the just, so that, whenever he dispensed from the Law fully, they would not be alarmed. His Father had also dispensed from sabbaths to show that the sabbath was of his own making. He was also continuing to dispense from it that he might show that these were discerning remedies, proposed by the skilled physician for the pain which stretches from the sole of the foot to the head. (Isa 1.6) They were rubbing the ears of corn and eating.3 That is, they depicted a parable there, for the Law does not permit one to eat the first fruits until they were offered on the altar.4 But these took the first fruits [reserved for] the chief priests before the harvest. The pharisees did not perceive that they should accuse the disciples over this, but [rather] that they were breaking the Sabbath. Our Lord put forward the clear example of David who was not accused either over this, as he was over something else. It was not permissible, he said, for David to eat [the holy bread] since he was not a priest. However, he was a priest, because he was a temple of the Spirit. Because they did not yet understand this, he openly proved them wrong with regard to their own [position]: The priests were defiling the Sabbath in the temple, and they were not guilty of sin.7 Another element is depicted for us there. Before David was persecuted, he was not permitted to approach the holy things. But after he was persecuted, he partook of them with authority. So too, in the case of our Lord. After he was persecuted he shared his body among his disciples, and his blood among those who believed in him. The Sabbath was created for the sake of human beings,8 since it means rest, after six days. This is why it is for the sake of human beings. This is why it was named thus. The Sabbath was ...
To be sure the text as it now stands has all the elements reflected in our present gospel - i.e. David from 1 Sam 21 and then follows this with a reference to the Sabbath was created for Man. However it is clear that at least the Sabbath reference was added later given the fact that 'the Sabbath was created for man' appears again later in the Commentary in more detailed treatment:
[but for human beings.1 Consequently, he who instituted it is its Lord.2 Let us see [if] what was said in the words, "Whether I am the one who instituted it or not," [is verified] by the deed. For the blind man testifies [to it], and the sick proclaim [it]. Our Lord observed all the Law in its place, to show that it is to be observed, and to condemn, through his observance, those who destroy it. But he dispensed from certain [precepts] of it for higher [motives], to show that higher [motives] prevail over everything, and also to show that he was Lord of the Law through his healing. Accordingly, created beings, who have dominion over the Sabbath through the Father's will, obey him. §7. Through the dispensation of the Sabbath we learn that my Father continues even until now to perform deeds.3 [He said this] to reproach them, for these did not dispense from the Law for higher motives. He did not reproach them for rescuing one's ox or ass [from the pit]
In other words, in the original context the Pentateuch was again (cf. the Marcionite criticism of the law on muzzling oxen) being condemned for concerning itself with animals. The original gospel said that the Sabbath was created for man not for oxen and asses. As such the words did not appear earlier in the gospel in the section dealing with another set of laws which came from another god beside Jesus.

In that section the criticism was the law governing the priests getting the first fruits. The line about 'Sabbaths' doesn't fit the section whatsoever but was added their to distract from the (correct) claims of Marcionites that the gospel is a long set of antitheses against the Law.

Re: Adv Marc Books 4 and Five and Justin Martyr

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:13 pm
by Secret Alias
I always get suspicious in this text where I see words and phrases reappear after a large gap - almost as if a later hand inserted what stands in between the two 'islands':
Concerning the Sabbath also I have this to premise, that this question could not have arisen, if Christ did not publicly proclaim the Lord of the Sabbath. Nor could there be any discussion about His destroying the Sabbath (destrueret sabbatum), if He had a right to destroy it (si destruere deberet). Moreover, He would have the right to destroy it (porro destruere deberet), if He belonged to the rival god; nor would it cause surprise to any one that He did what it was right for Him to do. Men's astonishment therefore arose from their opinion that it was improper for Him to proclaim the Creator to be God and yet to impugn His Sabbath. [2] Now, that we may decide these several points first, lest we should be renewing them at every turn to meet each argument of our adversary which rests on some novel institution of Christ, let this stand as a settled point, that discussion concerning the novel character of each institution ensued on this account, because as nothing was as yet advanced by Christ touching any new deity, so discussion thereon was inadmissible; nor could it be retorted, that from the very novelty of each several institution another deity was clearly enough demonstrated by Christ, inasmuch as it was plain that novelty was not in itself a characteristic to be wondered at in Christ, because it had been foretold by the Creator. And it would have been, of course, but right that a new god should first be expounded, and his discipline be introduced afterwards; because it would be the god that would impart authority to the discipline, and not the discipline to the god; except that (to be sure) it has happened that Marcion acquired his very perverse opinions not from a master, but his master from his opinion! [3] All other points respecting the Sabbath I thus rule. If Christ interfered with (intervertit) the Sabbath, He simply acted after the Creator's example; inasmuch as in the siege of the city of Jericho the carrying around the walls of the ark of the covenant for eight days running, and therefore on a Sabbath-day, actually destroyed the Sabbath, by the Creator's command (ex praecepto creatoris sabbatum operatione destruxit)----according to the opinion of those who think this of Christ in this passage of St. Luke, in their ignorance that neither Christ nor the Creator violated the Sabbath (ignorantes neque Christum sabbatum destruxisse neque creatorem), as we shall by and by show. And yet the Sabbath was actually then broken by Joshua, so that the present charge might be alleged also against Christ. [4] But even if, as being not the Christ of the Jews, He displayed a hatred against the Jews' most solemn day, He was only professedly following the Creator, as being His Christ, in this very hatred of the Sabbath; for He exclaims by the mouth of Isaiah: "Your new moons and your Sabbaths my soul hateth." Now, in whatever sense these words were spoken, we know that an abrupt defence must, in a subject of this sort, be used in answer to an abrupt challenge. [5] I shall now transfer the discussion to the very matter in which the teaching of Christ seemed to annul the Sabbath ( in qua visa est destruere sabbatum Christi disciplina).The disciples had been hungry; on that the Sabbath day they had plucked some ears and rubbed them in their hands; by thus preparing their food, they had violated the holy day. Christ excuses them, and became their accomplice in breaking the Sabbath. The Pharisees bring the charge against Him. Marcion sophistically interprets the stages of the controversy (if I may call in the aid of the truth of my Lord to ridicule his arts), both in the scriptural record and in Christ's purpose. For from the Creator's Scripture, and from the purpose of Christ, there is derived a colourable precedent ----as from the example of David, when he went into the temple on the Sabbath, and provided food by boldly breaking up the shew-bread. [6] Even he remembered that this privilege (I mean the dispensation from fasting) was allowed to the Sabbath from the very beginning, when the Sabbath-day itself was instituted. For although the Creator had forbidden that the manna should be gathered for two days, He yet permitted it on the one occasion only of the day before the Sabbath, in order that the yesterday's provision of food might free from fasting the feast of the following Sabbath-day.[7]Good reason, therefore, had the Lord for pursuing the same principle in the destruction of the Sabbath (Bene igitur quod et causam eandem secutus est dominus in sabbati, si ita volunt dici, destructione) since that is the word which men will use); good reason, too, for expressing the Creator's will, when He bestowed the privilege of not fasting on the Sabbath-day. In short, He would have then and there destroyed the Sabbath (denique tunc demum sabbatum destruxisset), nay, to the Creator Himself, if He had commanded His disciples to fast on the Sabbath-day, contrary to the intention of the Scripture and of the Creator's will. [8] But because He did not directly defend His disciples, but excuses them; because He interposes human want, as if deprecating censure; because He maintains the honour of the Sabbath as a day which is to be free from gloom rather than from work; because he puts David and his companions on a level with His own disciples in their fault and their extenuation; because He is pleased to endorse391 the Creator's indulgence: because He is Himself good according to His example----is He therefore alien from the Creator? [9] Then the Pharisees watch whether He would heal on the Sabbath-day, that they might accuse Him----surely as a violator of the Sabbath, not as the propounder of a new god; for perhaps I might be content with insisting on all occasions on this one point, that another Christ is nowhere proclaimed. The Pharisees, however, were in utter error concerning the law of the Sabbath, not observing that its terms were conditional, when it enjoined rest from labour, making certain distinctions of labour. For when it says of the Sabbath-day, "In it thou shalt not do any work of thine," by the word thine it restricts the prohibition to human work----which every one performs in his own employment or business----and not to divine work. [10] Now the work of healing or preserving is not proper to man, but to God. So again, in the law it says, "Thou shalt not do any manner of work in it,"except what is to be done for any soul, that is to say, in the matter of delivering the soul; because what is God's work may be done by human agency for the salvation of the soul. By God, however, would that be done which the man Christ was to do, for He was likewise God. Wishing, therefore, to initiate them into this meaning of the law by the restoration of the withered hand, He requires, "Is it lawful on the Sabbath-days to do good, or not? to save life, or to destroy it? " [11] In order that He might, whilst allowing that amount of work which He was about to perform for a soul, remind them what works the law of the Sabbath forbade----even human works; and what it enjoined----even divine works, which might be done for the benefit of any soul, He was called "Lord of the Sabbath," because He maintained the Sabbath as His own institution. Now, even if He had annulled the Sabbath, He would have had the right to do so (Quod etiam si destruxisset, merito) as being its Lord, (and) still more as He who instituted it. [12] But He did not utterly destroy it although its Lord (Sed non omnino destruxit qua dominus), in order that it might henceforth be plain that the Sabbath was not destroyed by the Creator (sabbatum a creatore destructum), even at the time when the ark was carried around Jericho. For that was really God's work, which He commanded Himself, and which He had ordered for the sake of the lives of His servants when exposed to the perils of war. [13] Now, although He has in a certain place expressed an aversion of Sabbaths, by calling them your Sabbaths, reckoning them as men's Sabbaths, not His own, because they were celebrated without the fear of God by a people full of iniquities, and loving God "with the lip, not the heart," He has yet put His own Sabbaths (those, that is, which were kept according to His prescription) in a different position; for by the same prophet, in a later passage, He declared them to be "true, and delightful, and inviolable." [14] Thus Christ did not at all rescind the Sabbath: He kept the law thereof, and both in the former case did a work which was beneficial to the life of His disciples, for He indulged them with the relief of food when they were hungry, and in the present instance cured the withered hand; in each case intimating by facts, "I came not to destroy, the law, but to fulfil it," although Marcion has gagged His mouth by this word. For even in the case before us He fulfilled the law, while interpreting its condition; moreover, He exhibits in a dear light the different kinds of work, while doing what the law excepts from the sacredness of the Sabbath and while imparting to the Sabbath-day itself, which from the beginning had been consecrated by the benediction of the Father, an additional sanctity by His own beneficent action. For He furnished to this day divine safeguards, ----a course which His adversary would have pursued for some other days, to avoid honouring the Creator's Sabbath, and restoring to the Sabbath the works which were proper for it. [15] Since, in like manner, the prophet Elisha on this day restored to life the dead son of the Shunammite woman,418 you see, O Pharisee, and you too, O Marcion, how that it was proper employment for the Creator's Sabbaths of old to do good, to save life, not to destroy it; how that Christ introduced nothing new, which was not after the example, the gentleness, the mercy, and the prediction also of the Creator. For in this very example He fulfils the prophetic announcement of a specific healing: "The weak hands are strengthened," as were also "the feeble knees" in the sick of the palsy.


I think it is self evident here that a large chunk of text has been inserted in between a continuous text in the original. Look at how the ideas continue directly one from the other once the offending material is removed:

All other points respecting the Sabbath I thus rule. If Christ interfered with (intervertit) the Sabbath, He simply acted after the Creator's example; inasmuch as in the siege of the city of Jericho the carrying around the walls of the ark of the covenant for eight days running, and therefore on a Sabbath-day, actually destroyed the Sabbath, by the Creator's command (ex praecepto creatoris sabbatum operatione destruxit)----according to the opinion of those who think this of Christ in this passage of St. Luke, in their ignorance that neither Christ nor the Creator violated the Sabbath (ignorantes neque Christum sabbatum destruxisse neque creatorem), as we shall by and by show. And yet the Sabbath was actually then broken by Joshua, so that the present charge might be alleged also against Christ. [4] But even if, as being not the Christ of the Jews, He displayed a hatred against the Jews' most solemn day, He was only professedly following the Creator, as being His Christ, in this very hatred of the Sabbath; for He exclaims by the mouth of Isaiah: "Your new moons and your Sabbaths my soul hateth." Now, even if He had annulled the Sabbath, He would have had the right to do so (Quod etiam si destruxisset, merito) as being its Lord, (and) still more as He who instituted it. [12] But He did not utterly destroy it although its Lord (Sed non omnino destruxit qua dominus), in order that it might henceforth be plain that the Sabbath was not destroyed by the Creator (sabbatum a creatore destructum), even at the time when the ark was carried around Jericho. For that was really God's work, which He commanded Himself, and which He had ordered for the sake of the lives of His servants when exposed to the perils of war. [13] Now, although He has in a certain place expressed an aversion of Sabbaths, by calling them your Sabbaths, reckoning them as men's Sabbaths, not His own, because they were celebrated without the fear of God by a people full of iniquities


This is not to say of course that the inserted material wasn't somehow part of a more original commentary on a 'gospel harmony' made in the name of Justin.