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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:34 am
by maryhelena
Ulan wrote:
Secret Alias wrote:And the connection with John Hyrcanus (= Jannai) would explain why Jesus is associated with the king in later Jewish tradition (you know the Mead Jesus lived 100 BCE stuff). The Jews don't know "John the Baptist" and don't associate him with Jesus but do associate Jannai with Jesus
Just for clarification: Did you mean that John Hyrcanus and Jannai did the same regarding baptism, or what is that equation sign meant to tell? Did you mean that Jannai followed on John Hyrcanus in the same way as Jesus followed on John the Baptist? At least the conflict with the Pharisees would fit.

We are nearly in Maryhelena territory here, although it sounds a bit more likely.
:D

Well now - if Stephan Huller is finally taking a look at Hasmonean history as relevant to the gospel story.... :clap:

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:13 am
by Secret Alias
Peter,

It is clear that at the beginning of Antiquities Josephus gives a slightly different explanation of the relationship between Antiquities and Jewish Wars:
Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study; for it will contain all our antiquities, and the constitution of our government, as interpreted out of the Hebrew Scriptures. And indeed I did formerly intend, when I wrote of the war, to explain who the Jews originally were, - what fortunes they had been subject to, - and by what legislature they had been instructed in piety, and the exercise of other virtues, - what wars also they had made in remote ages, till they were unwillingly engaged in this last with the Romans: but because this work would take up a great compass, I separated it into a set treatise by itself, with a beginning of its own, and its own conclusion; but in process of time, as usually happens to such as undertake great things, I grew weary and went on slowly, it being a large subject, and a difficult thing to translate our history into a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language. However, some persons there were who desired to know our history, and so exhorted me to go on with it; and, above all the rest, Epaphroditus, a man who is a lover of all kind of learning, but is principally delighted with the knowledge of history, and this on account of his having been himself concerned in great affairs, and many turns of fortune, and having shown a wonderful rigor of an excellent nature, and an immovable virtuous resolution in them all. I yielded to this man's persuasions, who always excites such as have abilities in what is useful and acceptable, to join their endeavors with his. I was also ashamed myself to permit any laziness of disposition to have a greater influence upon me, than the delight of taking pains in such studies as were very useful: I thereupon stirred up myself, and went on with my work more cheerfully. Besides the foregoing motives, I had others which I greatly reflected on; and these were, that our forefathers were willing to communicate such things to others; and that some of the Greeks took considerable pains to know the affairs of our nation.
So the story is of course that at the time of writing of Life (see conclusion) Antiquities was written apparently at the persuasion of a certain 'Epaphroditus' a name also associated with the orthodox Pauline corpus (i.e. at the point at which the short Marcionite letters were expanded to include large amounts of 'personal information' about the Apostle).

Coincidence? I don't think so. Nor do I think the explanation here of Josephus overcoming the mistrust of his 'race' (= the Jews) of outsiders is very convincing. But most importantly we have to question how and why a chronology of the Jewish people was written in 93 CE (cf the introduction of this volume):
His prophecy became true in 68 C.E. when Nero committed suicide and Vespasian became Ceasar. As a result, Josephus was freed; he moved to Roman and became a Roman citizen, taking the Vespasian family name Flavius. Vespasian commissioned Josephus to write a history of the war, which he finished in 78 C.E., the Jewish War. His second major work, the Antiquities of the Jews, was completed in 93 C.E. He wrote Against Apion in about 96-100 C.E. and The Life of Josephus, his autobiography, about 100. He died shortly after.
was completed ending at the beginning of the Jewish War (in the 60s) but no mention is made of perhaps the most fascinating period of Jewish history - i.e. the period from 70 - 93 CE. What historians would give for information about that period when temple Judaism comes to an end! How isn't that 'interesting enough' for Josephus now to mention? As we see in Clement's Josephus - it is only natural for an author to think they are the center of the universe. Moreover most literary audiences too are most interested in the time they are living in is also second nature. Why wouldn't his audience, reading a book purporting to be a history of the Jewish people have been completely surprised that we learn absolutely nothing - bupkis - about what happened to the Jews today - i.e. after the bloody Jewish War! Many presumably would have been dissatisfied with this chronology. The idea that this wouldn't have been of interest to anyone is simply nonsense. The reason it isn't here is because someone stopped the chronology which, as Clement of Alexandria notes, continued until 147/48 CE. That's the best explanation. Our first witness to a text should be believed. The idea that the Josephan corpus was altered is hardly controversial. It's not like, let's say the Bible :D

One more thing about the fighting age for 'men of war' of that period. When the rabbis discuss the two powers 'contradiction' in he Bible - viz. the apparent discrepancy that God appears as an old man in Daniel 7:9 and a 'youth' in Exodus 15:3 it plainly shows that 'men of war' were assumed to be about 20 years old. The idea that a soldier from the Jewish War lived until 147/48 is only surprising given his longevity. But plainly it wouldn't have survived Clement that a twenty year old in 67 CE could have lived to a hundred. Many monks are documented to have lived that long.

The argument that Josephus didn't want to appear redundant of course is contradicted plainly by the fact - as Shaye Cohen exploits - that Life and Jewish Wars cover the exact same period and reuse an original source (= the 'Aramaic hypomnema'). Why was 'Josephus' apparently VERY WILLING to go over the period of the Jewish War at the end of his life in his 'Life' (an apology for his actions in the War)? Why was Jewish War developed from an original lost 'short recension' of the Jewish war (i.e. that in fact THREE texts were originally penned by Josephus - viz. the lost Aramaic hypomnema, Jewish Wars, Life)? Moreover Josephus is not at hesitant again to duplicate the period leading up to the Jewish war in both Jewish War and Antiquities?

As a result I have to say that Clement must originally be correct. There was a text associated with one 'Flavius Josephus the Jew' which went up to 147/48 and was a chronology of the Jewish people. Perhaps this 'Josephus' claimed to be a youth during the war (i.e. in his twenties) and lived to one hundred. Our biographical information is very unclear given that Photius's reference doesn't define whether it was Justus of Tiberias who died in 100 CE or Josephus - the usual difficulty with droning references to a conflict between two men and a vague statement that 'he' (one of the two men) lived to a certain date.

Shaye Cohen's discovery of a common text behind Jewish War and Life and Thackery's arguments about 'assistants' developing the Josephan corpus would in fact allow for an original date of the corpus c. 147/48. That changes were made to this text is hardly surprising given what happens to all Christian texts - i.e. the various 'Against Heresies' that emerge throughout the third century. Once again, no less than the gospels, Josephus is a mostly unreliable history. It is all we have in most cases. But hardly something I would bet my life on.

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:20 am
by Secret Alias
And on the subject of the abrupt ending to the Chronology. That seems itself to bear witness to subsequent Christian editing of the text. In other words, the presumption is that the Jews no longer have legitimacy. That after the Jewish War God had turned his back on this people and now 'the true Israel' is to be found elsewhere. The Josephus who wrote the text clearly mentions at the beginning of Antiquities that his master Epaphroditus is interesting in a still very vibrant and living Jewish people. How could he possibly have omitted the fate of the Jewish people in the period after the destruction of the temple? It's not possible the text ended in 66 CE - or if you include Jewish War 73 CE.

Here are some references to 'Jews' in the introduction. The first Josephus I says I wanted to explain "who the Jews originally were, - what fortunes they had been subject to, - and by what legislature they had been instructed in piety, and the exercise of other virtues, - what wars also they had made in remote ages, till they were unwillingly engaged in this last with the Romans: but because this work would take up a great compass." Wouldn't the idea of the consequences of the rebellion on the religion have been significant - i.e. in the period 73 - 93 CE?

More significant perhaps is the inspiration by 'the false history' of Justus of Tiberias - "Now of these several reasons for writing history, I must profess the two last were my own reasons also; for since I was myself interested in that war which we Jews had with the Romans, and knew myself its particular actions, and what conclusion it had, I was forced to give the history of it, because I saw that others perverted the truth of those actions in their writings." So Josephus was inspired to write these books to 'correct' the false history of Justus. But Justus' Chronology clearly went down to the time of Agrippa. From the entry in Photius:
XXIII. Read the Chronicle of Justus of Tiberias, entitled A Chronicle of the Kings of the Jews in the form of a genealogy, by Justus of Tiberias. He came from Tiberias in Galilee, from which he took his name. He begins his history with Moses and carries it down to the death of the seventh Agrippa of the family of Herod and the last of the Kings of the Jews. His kingdom, which was bestowed upon him by Claudius, was extended by Nero, and still more by Vespasian. He (either Justus or Agrippa) died in the third year of Trajan, when the history ends. Justus' style is very concise and he omits a great deal that is of utmost importance. Suffering from the common fault of the Jews, to which race he belonged, he does not even mention the coming of Christ, the events of his life, or the miracles performed by Him. His father was a Jew named Pistus; Justus himself, according to Josephus, was one of the most abandoned of men, a slave to vice and greed. He was a political opponent of Josephus, against whom he is said to have concocted several plots; but Josephus, although on several occasions he had his enemy in his power, only chastised him with words and let him go free. It is said that the history which he (Justus) wrote is in great part fictitious, especially where he describes the Judaeo-Roman war and the capture of Jerusalem.
So Josephus wrote wrote his text against Justus's text which ended in the third year of Trajan (Trajan was Roman emperor from 98 CE until his death in 117 CE) and Justus's Chronology lasted until 101 CE but Josephus found nothing to correct in Justus's Chronology from 73 - 101 CE??? Indeed it would seem that the date of 93 CE for Antiquities is far too optimistic. The text was clearly written sometime between 101 CE and 147/48 CE. Clement's testimony clearly betrays the existence of a text attributed to 'Flavius Josephus the Jew' dating to 147/48 CE. It should be believed to be the original date of Antiquities.

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:42 am
by Secret Alias
Anyone strains credibility arguing that Josephus could have written Antiquities in the first century as a reaction to another 'false' Chronology written in 103 CE. A book such as Antiquities would require years to write. If Justus's text came out in 103 CE a time of after 110 CE for Antiquities makes much better sense. But Josephus has never been 'just some writer' for Christians. He is 'almost Christian' much like Philo - a Jew who 'almost' embraced Christianity. It is simply ridiculous to believe that Antiquities was a Jewish Chronology which ended when it did when Clement tells us otherwise. Christians do it because they are - well - for the most part irrational when it comes to things related to their faith. But you guys? What's your excuse.

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:47 am
by Secret Alias
Third year of Trajan 103 CE - tenth year of Antonius Pius 147 CE = 44 years. Possible date for Antiquities.
Third year of Trajan 103 CE - 93 CE -10 years. Impossible date for Antiquities.

Justus's chronology went from the beginning of the Jewish monarchy until the date of publication for the chronology. Like every other known chronology.
Flavius Josephus the Jew's Chronology (known to Clement) went from the beginning of time until the date of publication for the chronology.
Flavius Josephus the Jew's chronology (in our possession) purports to refute the errors of Justus's chronology which go up to 103 CE but ends almost fifty years before the time of publication. Absolutely unlike any chronology every written in the history of humanity.

But it is very difficult to go beyond the 'what we have in our possession' is worth ten thousand in the bush mentality of human beings - i.e. everything which fate/God took away from us 'wasn't worth having' (the jilted boyfriend/girlfriend logic).

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:50 am
by Peter Kirby
Secret Alias wrote:So the story is of course that at the time of writing of Life (see conclusion) Antiquities was written apparently at the persuasion of a certain 'Epaphroditus' a name also associated with the orthodox Pauline corpus (i.e. at the point at which the short Marcionite letters were expanded to include large amounts of 'personal information' about the Apostle).

Coincidence? I don't think so.
If you're impressed by that, maybe I have some tea leaves I'd like to sell you?
Secret Alias wrote:The argument that Josephus didn't want to appear redundant
Nobody said that ("didn't want to appear redundant"). You end up denying the author his agency. His reasons are his own; his sense of proportion and organizational style are his own. He's not designing it to satisfy you and your concerns. Those concerns are imported into the discussion, not intrinsic to the text.

Also, you've misplaced the text generically. It's not a "Chronology" as it was understood in the era. Your argument succeeds to the extent that you can place it strongly in that genre, but that doesn't seem to be appropriate. It's a history.
Secret Alias wrote:But you guys? What's your excuse.
I respond better to coherent / sound / logical argument. The arguments in favor of the Josephan origin of the Antiquities are straightforward and evidence-based. The arguments for the alternative are contrived and speculation-based.

The problem with speculation is that it's a question of preference, not evidence. You have for the most part ignored the 'speculation' about the reference from Clement of Alexandria that I offered on the matter, presumably because you prefer your own. But at least this one accords with the evidence, rather than being useful as a way to contradict the evidence.

I know most people don't understand stylometry and thus discount it implicitly (preferring 'methods' that they can massage to get the desired result...), but stylometry does support the essential unity of the Josephan corpus, including the common authorship of the Wars and the Antiquities (and non-authorship of some apocrypha, like the "Discourse on Hades" that he didn't write).

Here's that other explanation/speculation again:

http://peterkirby.com/chasing-hegesippus.html

What's supposed to make your explanation of it necessary or highly likely?

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:53 am
by Secret Alias
So it makes sense that Antiquities responded to a Chronology of Justus of Tiberias ten years before the text it was responding to was actually written? Jilted boyfriend logic.

"Now of these several reasons for writing history, I must profess the two last were my own reasons also; for since I was myself interested in that war which we Jews had with the Romans, and knew myself its particular actions, and what conclusion it had, I was forced to give the history of it, because I saw that others (= Justus) perverted the truth of those actions in their writings."

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:57 am
by Secret Alias
So let me guess what you are going to do next:

1. Josephus wasn't responding to Justus
2. Justus 'must have written' another chronology and then continued it up until 103 CE later.

But why isn't Clement's testimony a counter argument to that claim. It was Antiquities which was shortened not Justus's chronology lengthened?

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:58 am
by Secret Alias
That the Josephan corpus was directed against Justus:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Gg41S ... us&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=oVlfQ ... us&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=OqrYC ... us&f=false

That Justus wrote the Chronology in 103 CE is beyond question. Surely Photius can be counted on ascertaining when a book 'ended.' What's left to discuss? That Christian books are edited in ways that are historically illogical? Perhaps the editors didn't count on anyone getting a hold of Justus's Chronology.

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:02 am
by Secret Alias
What part of the understanding that Antiquities can't be responding to a book written in 103 CE before 103 CE do you have difficulties with? My guess is that you can't believe that scholars never noticed the discrepancy. Welcome to the world of bad scholarship in ancient Judaism and Christianity. Happens all the time. It's not like Hurtado and Mason and the like ended up in religious studies because they had a bright future in engineering.