Page 1 of 6
Mark's „ὅ ἐστιν“
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:53 am
by Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Ben C. Smith wrote:The phrase ὅ ἐστιν points to a different kind of phenomenon elsewhere in the gospel, one that I pointed out above: the translation of terms from one language into another (several times from Aramaic/Hebrew into Greek, twice from Greek into Latin). That is the data set that has to be addressed first.
To start, an overview and some textual problems
Overview
The phrase "ὅ ἐστιν" ("which is") is used sometimes with the word „translated“ (in the sense of „which is translated“) and sometimes without the word „translated“.
Hope I didn't miss anything
| Mark | Term A | ὅ ἐστιν | use of the word „translated“ | Term B |
| 3:17 | Boanerges | which is | XXX | Sons of thunder |
| 5:41 | "Talitha koum!" | which is | translated | "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" |
| 7:11 | corban | which is | XXX | a gift |
| 7:34 | “Ephphatha“ | which is | XXX | “Be opened“ |
| 12:42 | two lepta | which is | XXX | a quadrans |
| 15:16 | courtyard (palace?) | which is | XXX | praetorium |
| 15:22 | place Golgotha | which is | translated | place of skull |
| 15:34 | "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" | which is | translated | "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" |
| 15:42 | Preparation Day | which is | XXX | the day before the Sabbath |
Textual problems
1. problems with the word „translated“
laparola = 1 match
15:22 place Golgotha which is translated place of skull
μεθερμηνευόμενον] א C D L Θ Ψ 0250 f1 f13 Byz ς
μεθερμηνευόμενος] A B N 892 pc itk WH
2. problems with the phrase „ὅ ἐστιν“
laparola = 1 match
Mark 3:17
ὅ ἐστιν Υἱοὶ Βροντῆς] Byz ς WH
omit] syrs
Codex Sinaiticus
Mark 5:41 ο έστι μεθερμηνευο'μενον
Mark 15:22 omit "ὅ" - έστι μεθερμηνευο'μενον
3. problems with the terms 3:17 Boanerges which is Sons of thunder
ὅ ἐστιν Υἱοὶ Βροντῆς] Byz ς WH
omit] syrs
5:41 "Talitha koum!" which is translated "Little girl, I say to you, get up!"
ταλιθα κουμ] א B C L M N Σ f1 28 33 892 1241 1424 2427 al cop WH NR CEI TILC Nv
ταλιθα κουμι] A Δ Θ Π Φ 0126 0133 f13 22 124 543 565 579 700 1071 Byz ite itq vg syrp syrh syrh(gr) arm eth ς ND Riv Dio NM
ῥαββί θαβιθα κουμι] D
ταβιθα κουμι] it
ταβιθα] W 245 349 ita itr1
tabea acultha cumhi] ite
ἔγειρε] WH NR CEI ND Riv Dio TILC Nv NM
ἐγεῖραι] Byz ς
7:34 "Ephphatha" which is "Be opened"
Εφφαθα] Byz ς WH
Εφφεθα] אc D (W)
15:22 place Golgotha which is translated place of skull
τὸν Γολγοθᾶν] א B C2 L N Δ Θ Ψ 0250 f13 33 565 892 1424 al WH
Γολγοθᾶν] A C* D f1 Byz ς
15:34 "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which is translated "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
ελωι ελωι] Byz ς WH
ηλει ηλει] (see Matthew 27:46) D Θ (059 ελει ελει) 0192 (131 ηλι ηλι) 565 pc it Eusebius
λεμα] א C L Δ Ψ 083 72 495 517 579 892 1342 1675 al itc itl vgmss Eusebius CEI TILC
λαμα] B D N Θ Σ 059 1 22 565 1295 1582 pc iti WH NR Riv Nv NM
λιμα] A K M P U X Γ Π f13 33 106 118 131 209 543 697 700 1270 Byz syrh
λειμα] 28 al
λαμμα] vg ς ND Dio
σαβαχθανι] (א* A σαβακτανι) (C al σαβαχθανει) L Δ Θ Ψ 059 (083 ζαβαχθανι) f13 1 565 892 Byz itc itl vg syrh Eusebius ς WH
ζαφθανει] D (itd zapthani) (itff2 sapthani) (itk zaphani) (iti* izpthani) vgmss
ζαβαφθανει] B
μου ὁ θεός μου] 2427 Byz ς (WH μου [ὁ θεός μου])
ὁ θεός μου] A K P Y Γ Δ Θ 059 083 f1 f13 pm iti vgmss copsa(mss) Eusebius
ὁ θεός] Justin
μου] B 565 copbo(ms)
ἐγκατέλιπές με] (see Psalms 22:2) א B (L 083 565 892 1424 ἐγκατέλειπες itacism) Ψ 059 2427 vg syrs syrp copsa copbo copfay arm eth geo Diatessaronarm Ptolemyaccording to Irenaeus Valentiniansaccording to Irenaeus Valentiniansaccording to Justin Justin Eusebius Epiphanius WH
με ἐγκατέλιπές] (see Matthew 27:46) (A E G Π* ἐγκατέλειπες itacism) C F H (K 1009 l70 ἐγκατέλειπας) (P 33 ἐγκατέλιπας) X Δ Θ Π2 0233 f1 f13 28 157 180 205 579 597 700 1006 1010 1071 1079 1195 1216 1230 1241 1242 1243 1253 1292 1342 1344 1365 1505 1546 1646 2148 2174 Byz Lect itaur itd itff2 itl itn vgmss goth slav Irenaeuslat ς
ὡνείδισάς με] D (itc exprobasti me) (iti me in opprobrium dedisti) (itk* me maledixisti) syrh Porphyry mssaccording to Macarius/Symeon
Re: Mark's „ὅ ἐστιν“
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:51 am
by Ben C. Smith
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:To start, an overview and some textual problems
Overview
The phrase "ὅ ἐστιν" ("which is") is used sometimes with the word „translated“ (in the sense of „which is translated“) and sometimes without the word „translated“.
Hope I didn't miss anything
| Mark | Term A | ὅ ἐστιν | use of the word „translated“ | Term B |
| 3:17 | Boanerges | which is | XXX | Sons of thunder |
| 5:41 | "Talitha koum!" | which is | translated | "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" |
| 7:11 | corban | which is | XXX | a gift |
| 7:34 | “Ephphatha“ | which is | XXX | “Be opened“ |
| 12:42 | two lepta | which is | XXX | a quadrans |
| 15:16 | courtyard (palace?) | which is | XXX | praetorium |
| 15:22 | place Golgotha | which is | translated | place of skull |
| 15:34 | "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" | which is | translated | "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" |
| 15:42 | Preparation Day | which is | XXX | the day before the Sabbath |
I do not think you missed any relevant instances of this phrase in Mark.
I would add, for the sake of context and completeness, that Mark also translates
abba in 14.36 as "father", though without marking it as a translation with the phrase ὅ ἐστιν (or in any other way).
Also, several times Mark uses Semitic words but does
not translate them: 3.22 (
Beelzebul); 10.51 (
rabboni); 11.9-10 (
hosanna); 11.21 (
rabbi). He often does the same for Latin (loan) words: 4.21 (μόδιον =
modius); 5.9, 15 (λεγιών =
legio); 6.27 (σπεκουλάτωρ =
speculator); 6.37 (δηνάριον =
denarius); 12.14 (κη̂νσος =
census); 15.15 (φραγελλόω =
fragello); 15.39, 44, 45 (κεντυρίων =
centurio).
Ben.
Re: Mark's „ὅ ἐστιν“
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:17 am
by spin
The thing to note with ho estin is that it is an idiom. For example in 15:16 ho estin marks a qualification of a feminine noun, but there is no gender agreement. Same with the feminine paraskeuh in 15:42 with same neuter ho estin. This is not Greek Greek. This is a Latin form (id est/quod est) translated literally into Greek. It functions in Latin, but not so well in Greek. In fact a search of the gospels shows ho estin used nine times in Mk, twice in Mt (including a new exemplar, 1:23), but not at all in Lk. Not a functional idiom in Greek.
Re: Mark's „ὅ ἐστιν“
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:53 am
by Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Ben C. Smith wrote:Also, several times Mark uses Semitic words but does not translate them: 3.22 (Beelzebul); 10.51 (rabboni); 11.9-10 (hosanna); 11.21 (rabbi). He often does the same for Latin (loan) words: 4.21 (μόδιον = modius); 5.9, 15 (λεγιών = legio); 6.27 (σπεκουλάτωρ = speculator); 6.37 (δηνάριον = denarius); 12.14 (κη̂νσος = census); 15.15 (φραγελλόω = fragello); 15.39, 44, 45 (κεντυρίων = centurio).
Thanks for that.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
I would add, for the sake of context and completeness, that Mark also translates abba in 14.36 as "father", though without marking it as a translation with the phrase ὅ ἐστιν (or in any other way).
And I'd like to add "ὁ υἱὸς Τιμαίου Βαρτιμαῖος" (Mark 10:46): the son of Timaeus, Bar-timaeus.
I've often thought that with these two verses a reader is able to translate the name Bar-abbas as "Son of father".
Re: Mark's „ὅ ἐστιν“
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:47 am
by Kunigunde Kreuzerin
spin wrote:The thing to note with ho estin is that it is an idiom. For example in 15:16 ho estin marks a qualification of a feminine noun, but there is no gender agreement. Same with the feminine paraskeuh in 15:42 with same neuter ho estin. This is not Greek Greek. This is a Latin form (id est/quod est) translated literally into Greek. It functions in Latin, but not so well in Greek. In fact a search of the gospels shows ho estin used nine times in Mk, twice in Mt (including a new exemplar, 1:23), but not at all in Lk. Not a functional idiom in Greek.
I tend to agree in principle, but let's not judge too early. It seems there are two similar cases.
2 Thes 3:17 (note the textual variants)
The greeting (fem) is in my own hand--Paul, which is (ὅ ἐστιν) my sign in every letter.
Eph 6:17 (note the textual variants)
Take the helmet (fem) of salvation and the sword (fem) of the Spirit, which is (ὅ ἐστιν) the word of God.
Re: Mark's „ὅ ἐστιν“
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:36 am
by spin
It may be surprising that I worked only with texts we know something about, ie we have a solid relationship between Mk & the other two synoptic gospels. How does one redactionally or chronologically relate the information from 2 Thes & Eph with the synoptic data?
We know that Lk's Greek is relatively good and it contains no idiomatic examples. Mt has only two, one of which is inherited from Mk. We have clear evidence that this use of ho estin isn't productive for redactors improving on Mk. OK, now your turn....
Re: Mark's „ὅ ἐστιν“
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:41 am
by Ben C. Smith
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:And I'd like to add "ὁ υἱὸς Τιμαίου Βαρτιμαῖος" (Mark 10:46): the son of Timaeus, Bar-timaeus.
Good one. One I missed.
Re: Mark's „ὅ ἐστιν“
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:49 am
by Kunigunde Kreuzerin
.
Maybe we can agree on this: In all (or almost all) 9 cases we have a juxtaposition of words (or loan words) from two languages. It's not always a translation in a strict sense. In several instances it is rather a type of explanation, commentation, glossing, paraphrasing, specifying or concretisation ... (I shall be coming back to this later)
For such a juxtaposition with the phrase „ὅ ἐστιν“ I could only find one example (or two) in the Bible, which Mark might have known.
Gen 30:18
LXX - … καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ισσαχαρ ὅ ἐστιν μισθός
… and she called his name Issachar, which is, Reward
(MT - Then Leah said, "God has rewarded me for giving my servant to my husband." So she named him Issachar.)
Heb 7:2
βασιλεὺς Σαλήμ, ὅ ἐστιν βασιλεὺς εἰρήνης
King of Salem, which is, King of peace
Next overview - language shift
A little problem is Mark 3:17.
Some scholars (but clearly not the majority) doubt that the word “Boanerges” has a Semitic origin und prefer a explanation with Greek.
In some cases, the root of a loan word may not Aramaic but Hebrew. I am not sure whether the overview is correct in this respect.
| Mark | Term A | language | Term B | language |
| 3:17 | Boanerges | Aramaic or Hebrew (or Greek) | Sons of thunder | Greek |
| 5:41 | "Talitha koum!" | Aramaic | "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" | Greek |
| 7:11 | corban | Hebrew | a gift | Greek |
| 7:34 | “Ephphatha“ | Aramaic | “Be opened“ | Greek |
| 12:42 | two lepta | Greek | a quadrans | Latin |
| 15:16 | courtyard (palace?) | Greek | praetorium | Latin |
| 15:22 | place Golgotha | Aramaic or Hebrew | place of skull | Greek |
| 15:34 | "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" | Aramaic | "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" | Greek |
| 15:42 | Preparation Day | Greek | the day before the Sabbath | Hebrew or Aramaic |
Re: Mark's „ὅ ἐστιν“
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:18 am
by Ben C. Smith
I do not know much of any Aramaic, but I do know a bit of Hebrew. So here goes....
Boanerges. I do not buy the explanation involving a Greek source. Both the vowels of boana- and the choice of -rges for "thunder" are things to be explained, but I have to think that the "b" and the "n" do come from the plural of the Aramaic or Hebrew for "son". But I readily admit that this problem is one that has not yet been completely solved.
Talitha koum is, I think, pure Aramaic, no Hebrew involved.
Corban (קָרְבָּן) is definitely Hebrew, used all over Leviticus (for example). I do not know whether it is also Aramaic.
Ephphatha is, I think, pure Aramaic, no Hebrew involved.
Golgotha seems like it matches up better with the Aramaic, but the Hebrew word for skull (גֻּלְגֹּ֛לֶת) is obviously cognate.
Ben.
Re: Mark's „ὅ ἐστιν“
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:10 am
by JoeWallack
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:spin wrote:The thing to note with ho estin is that it is an idiom. For example in 15:16 ho estin marks a qualification of a feminine noun, but there is no gender agreement. Same with the feminine paraskeuh in 15:42 with same neuter ho estin. This is not Greek Greek. This is a Latin form (id est/quod est) translated literally into Greek. It functions in Latin, but not so well in Greek. In fact a search of the gospels shows ho estin used nine times in Mk, twice in Mt (including a new exemplar, 1:23), but not at all in Lk. Not a functional idiom in Greek.
I tend to agree in principle, but let's not judge too early. It seems there are two similar cases.
2 Thes 3:17 (note the textual variants)
The greeting (fem) is in my own hand--Paul, which is (ὅ ἐστιν) my sign in every letter.
Eph 6:17 (note the textual variants)
Take the helmet (fem) of salvation and the sword (fem) of the Spirit, which is (ὅ ἐστιν) the word of God.
JW:
2 Thessalonians 3:17
| Strong's | Transliteration | Greek | English | Morphology |
| 3588 [e] | HO | Ὁ | the | Art-NMS |
| 783 [e] | aspasmos | ἀσπασμὸς | greeting | N-NMS |
| 3588 [e] | tē | τῇ | - | Art-DFS |
| 1699 [e] | emē | ἐμῇ | in my own | PPro-DF1S |
| 5495 [e] | cheiri | χειρὶ | hand -- | N-DFS |
| 3972 [e] | Paulou | Παύλου, | Paul, | N-GMS |
| 3739 [e] | ho | ὅ | which | RelPro-NNS |
| 1510 [e] | estin | ἐστιν | is | V-PIA-3S |
| 4592 [e] | sēmeion | σημεῖον | [my] sign | N-NNS |
| 1722 [e] | en | ἐν | in | Prep |
| 3956 [e] | pasē | πάσῃ | every | Adj-DFS |
| 1992 [e] | epistolē | ἐπιστολῇ· | letter: | N-DFS |
| 3779 [e] | houtōs | οὕτως | so | Adv |
| 1125 [e] | graphō | γράφω. | I write. | V-PIA-1S |
JW:
GMark's use of strange/bizarre/macabre grammar:
Mark's" DiualCritical Marks. Evidence Of Intentional Fiction In The Original Gospel. Part II
which is a sign to me of intentional fiction as is his use of Paul:
OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's (Writings). Paul as Markan Source (The Parallels of Pauline
may be present in this Thread. But:
In the offending verse above "sign" is neuter, which it normally is, yes? So you have a neuter conjunction (which is) with one equivalent with a gender preceding and the equivalent on the other side is neuter. So you have a neuter equivalent for a word that is normally neuter preceded by a neuter conjunction. Is that a violation of Koine Greek grammar? spin, Ben, Jeffery, Daniel?
I do have to confess that Paul's letters always remind me of Epstein's letters from
Welcome Back Kotter.
Joseph
The new Porphyry Blog