The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.

[Secret Alias]

An example of how Joseph lent itself to being identified as 'the fruitful son'

"So, who delivers beautiful words — body. Consummation of body, as is written: A fruitful son is Joseph, a fruitful son by a spring (Genesis 49:22). Why twice, a fruitful son? Well, a fruitful son above, a fruitful son below. And why is he not a fruitful son below among the adornments of the Matronita? Because daughters stride by a rampart (ibid.) — for daughters are required for Her adornments, not sons.92: "Come and see: Holy Kingdom did not attain full kingship until She was joined with the patriarchs, and when She joined with them, She was formed into a complete structure by the upper world [which is male] ...

[Peter Kirby]

Mark 4:7–8

7 καὶ ἄλλο ἔπεσεν εἰς τὰς ἀκάνθας, καὶ ἀνέβησαν αἱ ἄκανθαι καὶ συνέπνιξαν αὐτό, καὶ καρπὸν οὐκ ἔδωκεν. 8 καὶ ἄλλα ἔπεσεν εἰς τὴν γῆν τὴν καλήν, καὶ ἐδίδου καρπὸν ἀναβαίνοντα καὶ αὐξανόμενα, καὶ ἔφερεν εἰς τριάκοντα καὶ ἐν ἑξήκοντα καὶ ἐν ἑκατόν.

7 Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain. 8 And other seeds fell into good soil and produced grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”

John 15:5

ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ἄμπελος, ὑμεῖς τὰ κλήματα. ὁ μένων ἐν ἐμοὶ κἀγὼ ἐν αὐτῷ, οὗτος φέρει καρπὸν πολύν, ὅτι χωρὶς ἐμοῦ οὐ δύνασθε ποιεῖν οὐδέν.

5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

[Ben C. Smith]

Mark 4:7–8

7 καὶ ἄλλο ἔπεσεν εἰς τὰς ἀκάνθας, καὶ ἀνέβησαν αἱ ἄκανθαι καὶ συνέπνιξαν αὐτό, καὶ καρπὸν οὐκ ἔδωκεν. 8 καὶ ἄλλα ἔπεσεν εἰς τὴν γῆν τὴν καλήν, καὶ ἐδίδου καρπὸν ἀναβαίνοντα καὶ αὐξανόμενα, καὶ ἔφερεν εἰς τριάκοντα καὶ ἐν ἑξήκοντα καὶ ἐν ἑκατόν.

7 Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain. 8 And other seeds fell into good soil and produced grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”

John 15:5

ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ἄμπελος, ὑμεῖς τὰ κλήματα. ὁ μένων ἐν ἐμοὶ κἀγὼ ἐν αὐτῷ, οὗτος φέρει καρπὸν πολύν, ὅτι χωρὶς ἐμοῦ οὐ δύνασθε ποιεῖν οὐδέν.

5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Huh. I always thought Polycarp was a female name for a fish.

[John2]

Hey Ben,

I was wondering if you could help clarify something for me. I've noticed that Eusebius' reference to Hegesippus using the Gospel of the Hebrews in EH 4.22.7 is translated at least two different ways and since I don't know Greek I can't tell which one gives the better sense of the passage, i.e., is there only one gospel ("the Syriac Gospel of the Hebrews") or are there two ("the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Syriac Gospel, and ...") being mentioned here?

"He wrote much else, some of which I have already quoted, and cites the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Syriac Gospel, and especially works of Hebrew language and oral tradition, showing that he was Hebrew convert" (Williamson).

"And he wrote of many other matters, which we have in part already mentioned, introducing the accounts in their appropriate places. And from the Syriac Gospel according to the Hebrews he quotes some passages in the Hebrew tongue, showing that he was a convert from the Hebrews, and he mentions other matters as taken from the unwritten tradition of the Jews" (on the New Advent site and Peter's Chasing Hegesippus blog post).

καὶ ἕτερα δὲ πλεῖστα γράφει, ὧν ἐκ μέρους ἤδη πρότερον ἐμνημονεύσαμεν, οἰκείως τοῖς καιροῖς τὰς ἱστορίας παραθέμενοι, ἔκ τε τοῦ καθ’ Ἑβραίους εὐαγγελίου καὶ τοῦ Συριακοῦ καὶ ἰδίως ἐκ τῆς Ἑβραΐδος διαλέκτου τινὰ τίθησιν, ἐμφαίνων ἐξ Ἑβραίων ἑαυτὸν πεπιστευκέναι, καὶ ἄλλα δὲ ὡς ἐξ Ἰουδαϊκῆς ἀγράφου παραδόσεως μνημονεύει.

[John2]

Also, regarding Hegesippus' use of 1 Clement (at least according to Eusebius, for as Brent notes, "Hegesippus' fragment itself makes no mention of Clement": https://books.google.com/books?id=tmavA ... eus&f=true), Pervo notes that:

"It is arguable that Hegesippus was anti-Pauline. A fragment from a Byzantine author, Stephanus Gobarus, preserved in Photius' Bibliotheca (cod. 232), evidently discusses an attack upon 1 Cor. 2:9. This saying was widely disseminated in various forms throughout Jewish and Christian circles. Gobarus understood this as a rejection of the passage, but evidence that Hegesippus mentioned either Paul or 1 Corinthians is lacking. He may have had 1 Clement 24:8 in mind. Since Hegesippus knew 1 Clement ... it is not possible that he had never heard of Paul. This is not sufficient to rank Hegesippus among the ardent anti-Paulinists, but it is very likely that Paul was not an authority for him."

https://books.google.com/books?id=RbGDw ... vo&f=false

Photius' Bibliotheca cod. 232 (Gobarus):

"The good things prepared for the just, the eye has not seen, the ears have not heard and they are not found in the heart of man. However Hegesippus, one of the ancients, a contemporary of the apostles, in the third book of his Commentaries, in I do not know what context, says that these are empty words and that those who say them are liars since the Holy Scriptures say, "Blessed are your eyes because they see and happy your ears because they hear," etc."

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/photi ... otheca.htm

[Ben C. Smith]

Hey Ben,

I was wondering if you could help clarify something for me. I've noticed that Eusebius' reference to Hegesippus using the Gospel of the Hebrews in EH 4.22.7 is translated at least two different ways and since I don't know Greek I can't tell which one gives the better sense of the passage, i.e., is there only one gospel here ("the Syriac Gospel of the Hebrews") or are there two ("the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Syriac Gospel, and ...") being mentioned here?

"He wrote much else, some of which I have already quoted, and cites the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Syriac Gospel, and especially works of Hebrew language and oral tradition, showing that he was Hebrew convert" (EH 4.22.7; Williamson).

"And he wrote of many other matters, which we have in part already mentioned, introducing the accounts in their appropriate places. And from the Syriac Gospel according to the Hebrews he quotes some passages in the Hebrew tongue, showing that he was a convert from the Hebrews, and he mentions other matters as taken from the unwritten tradition of the Jews" (on the New Advent site and Peter's Chasing Hegesippus blog post).

καὶ ἕτερα δὲ πλεῖστα γράφει, ὧν ἐκ μέρους ἤδη πρότερον ἐμνημονεύσαμεν, οἰκείως τοῖς καιροῖς τὰς ἱστορίας παραθέμενοι, ἔκ τε τοῦ καθ’ Ἑβραίους εὐαγγελίου καὶ τοῦ Συριακοῦ καὶ ἰδίως ἐκ τῆς Ἑβραΐδος διαλέκτου τινὰ τίθησιν, ἐμφαίνων ἐξ Ἑβραίων ἑαυτὸν πεπιστευκέναι, καὶ ἄλλα δὲ ὡς ἐξ Ἰουδαϊκῆς ἀγράφου παραδόσεως μνημονεύει.

That is a great question, and I wish it had a great answer. I think the sentence is a bit ambiguous, due to the fact that there are three instances of two different coordinating conjunctions used (τε and two instances of καὶ), all of which may be translated variously and idiomatically as "and" or "also" or "even" or (if the first of two instances) as "both". (This would be a great place for a rigorous application of the Harvard/Oxford/serial comma, but of course ancient Greek texts lack punctuation.)

I could seen translating the phrase in question in a number of ways:

"He set out certain things both from the gospel according to the Hebrews and from the Syriac [gospel], and especially from the Hebrew dialect."
"He set out certain things both from the gospel according to the Hebrews and from the Syriac [dialect], and especially from the Hebrew dialect."
"He set out certain things from the gospel according to the Hebrews and from the Syriac and especially the Hebrew dialect."
"He set out certain things from the gospel [which is] both according to the Hebrews and Syriac, and especially from the Hebrew dialect."

It is not an easy decision. On the one hand, both "Syriac" and "Hebrew dialect" are in the genitive case as objects of the preposition ἔκ ("from" or "out of"), and both are of course languages, so they may well go together; on the other hand, there are only two instances of ἔκ, not three, and the first instance seems to apply both to "gospel according to the Hebrews" and to "Syriac", so maybe those are the two items that go together. Or maybe all three items are separate entities. The word εὐαγγελίου ("gospel") is used only once, so nothing forces us to see two gospels here, but it may possibly be understood as the noun to which the adjective Syriac attaches, unless Syriac is supposed to attach to "dialect".

You can probably see why there are different translations of this sentence available.

Ben.

[Ben C. Smith]

Also, regarding Hegesippus' use of 1 Clement (at least according to Eusebius, for as Brent notes, "Hegesippus' fragment itself makes no mention of Clement": https://books.google.com/books?id=tmavA ... eus&f=true),

It all depends on what Eusebius means by: "It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians."

Photius' Bibliotheca cod. 232 (Gobarus):

"The good things prepared for the just, the eye has not seen, the ears have not heard and they are not found in the heart of man. However Hegesippus, one of the ancients, a contemporary of the apostles, in the third book of his Commentaries, in I do not know what context, says that these are empty words and that those who say them are liars since the Holy Scriptures say, "Blessed are your eyes because they see and happy your ears because they hear," etc."

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/photi ... otheca.htm

See my recent post on the other thread for a bit more on that.

Ben.

[John2]

Wow, I hadn't seen that post yet. Interesting coincidence. It sounds like our heads are all on the same page at the moment, since my first reaction to your post was "Wow!" and then I saw Stephan's "wow."

[Secret Alias]

And remember Polycarp is an ULTRA rare name. Yes I think they found some lowlife slave with this name. But that's not saying much. Polycarp was educated. If I had the time I'd think about what kind of 'faux etymology' a Greek speaking pagan might associate with Joseph.

[Secret Alias]

And notice יוסֵף is from יָסַף 'to add' (Genesis 30:23f). "She named him Joseph (יוֹסֵ֖ף), and said, "May the Lord add (יֹסֵ֧ף) to me another son." Polycarp is a cipher or disguise for someone named Joseph. I bet if I dig enough in the rabbinic literature I'd find something.