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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:52 pm
by Secret Alias
So if you take Epiphanius seriously here is the beginning of the Marcionite gospel
In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (Panarion 11.5)—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene— 2 during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:

“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.
5 Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth.
6 And all people will see God’s salvation.’”[a]
7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Messiah. 16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” 18 And with many other words John exhorted the people and proclaimed the good news to them.

19 But when John rebuked Herod the tetrarch because of his marriage to Herodias, his brother’s wife, and all the other evil things he had done, 20 Herod added this to them all: He locked John up in prison. (Panarion 11.4)

4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 where for forty days he was tempted[a] by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.

3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”

9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]”
12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”

13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.

14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f]
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

23 Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’”

24 “Truly I tell you,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25 I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy[g] in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

31 Then he went down to Capernaum, a town in Galilee, and on the Sabbath he taught the people. 32 They were amazed at his teaching, because his words had authority.

33 In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an impure spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 34 “Go away! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

35 “Be quiet!” Jesus said sternly. “Come out of him!” Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.

36 All the people were amazed and said to each other, “What words these are! With authority and power he gives orders to impure spirits and they come out!” 37 And the news about him spread throughout the surrounding area.

38 Jesus left the synagogue and went to the home of Simon. Now Simon’s mother-in-law was suffering from a high fever, and they asked Jesus to help her. 39 So he bent over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her. She got up at once and began to wait on them.

40 At sunset, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them. 41 Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Messiah.

42 At daybreak, Jesus went out to a solitary place. The people were looking for him and when they came to where he was, they tried to keep him from leaving them. 43 But he said, “I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.” 44 And he kept on preaching in the synagogues of Judea.

5 One day as Jesus was standing by the Lake of Gennesaret,[a] the people were crowding around him and listening to the word of God. 2 He saw at the water’s edge two boats, left there by the fishermen, who were washing their nets. 3 He got into one of the boats, the one belonging to Simon, and asked him to put out a little from shore. Then he sat down and taught the people from the boat.

4 When he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, “Put out into deep water, and let down the nets for a catch.”

5 Simon answered, “Master, we’ve worked hard all night and haven’t caught anything. But because you say so, I will let down the nets.”

6 When they had done so, they caught such a large number of fish that their nets began to break. 7 So they signaled their partners in the other boat to come and help them, and they came and filled both boats so full that they began to sink.

8 When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’ knees and said, “Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!” 9 For he and all his companions were astonished at the catch of fish they had taken, 10 and so were James and John, the sons of Zebedee, Simon’s partners.

Then Jesus said to Simon, “Don’t be afraid; from now on you will fish for people.” 11 So they pulled their boats up on shore, left everything and followed him.

12 While Jesus was in one of the towns, a man came along who was covered with leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell with his face to the ground and begged him, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.”

13 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” And immediately the leprosy left him.

14 Then Jesus ordered him “Don’t tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to you.”(Panarion 11.6)
Give me a break! When people tell us we can know the Marcionite gospel ...they're nuts. If Stuart or anyone else wants to argue with my reconstruction, please do.

Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:52 pm
by Secret Alias
Apparently Bezae also has "a testimony unto you" in 5:14 so this whole "Marcion gospel" things getting weaker and weaker.

Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:09 pm
by Secret Alias
Is that claim about D accurate?

Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:12 pm
by Secret Alias
Yes it seems and it was in the Old Latin too https://books.google.ca/books?id=nShsVh ... ke&f=false

Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:14 pm
by Ben C. Smith
Secret Alias wrote:Apparently Bezae also has "a testimony unto you" in 5:14 so this whole "Marcion gospel" things getting weaker and weaker.
Well, yes, that sort of thing happens all the time in Epiphanius and Tertullian; they seem unaware of variants across the Mediterranean, and they accuse Marcion of changing a text when the change is actually a feature of other text types and Marcion, if the reading is his, was probably just following his own local text type.

Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:45 pm
by Secret Alias
Yes and when T accepts the Bezae reading at Luke 5:14 it seems almost impossible that T and E are engaged in "holding different parts of the same elephant." Many of Irenaeus's variants are Bezae variants. You can read the parallel reporting of T and E on the Bezae/Old Latin variant of Luke 5:14 present in two ways. T was reporting a shared variant between his own canon and M and E was condemning a M variant unaware of the presence of that reading in orthodox sources OR Adversus Marcionem (= T) goes back to an earlier source (as Criddle agrees) which principally read orthodox readings (which happened to agree with Bezae/Old Latin) AGAINST THE KNOWN DOCTRINES of Marcion. This was what we will call proto-AM. Either this ur-text or AM itself was later gleaned for "Marcionite variants " by E. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT T DOES NOT REGARD "A TESTIMONY AGAINST YOU" AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN ACCEPTABLE READING.

Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:58 pm
by Secret Alias
So when you look at the existence of the variants in the early orthodox codices and Luke 5:14 as the first textual variant in Epiphanius it seems to me we have one of two possibilities

1. The gospel of M was just a slightly shorter version of Luke with mostly known variants scattered throughout

or

2. Epiphanius does not give us any clue about the scope or magnitude of the gospel of M; his list is hardly the limit of differences between M and Luke. He just collected variants from anti-M sources like AM and collected them in a very haphazard manner not taking into account that many of the variants might be attributable to the source reporting the information.

I think that there is a very high probability 2 is true.

Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:02 pm
by Ben C. Smith
Secret Alias wrote:Yes and when T accepts the Bezae reading at Luke 5:14 it seems almost impossible that T and E are engaged in "holding different parts of the same elephant." Many of Irenaeus's variants are Bezae variants. You can read the parallel reporting of T and E on the Bezae/Old Latin variant of Luke 5:14 present in two ways. T was reporting a shared variant between his own canon and M and E was condemning a M variant unaware of the presence of that reading in orthodox sources OR Adversus Marcionem (= T) goes back to an earlier source (as Criddle agrees) which principally read orthodox readings (which happened to agree with Bezae/Old Latin) AGAINST THE KNOWN DOCTRINES of Marcion. This was what we will call proto-AM. Either this ur-text or AM itself was later gleaned for "Marcionite variants " by E. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT T DOES NOT REGARD "A TESTIMONY AGAINST YOU" AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN ACCEPTABLE READING.
True enough, but this is still one of those nice cases where both Epiphanius and Tertullian attest to the same variant in the Marcionite text. Epiphanius happens to think it a corruption, while Tertullian may not, but both are still agreeing on what they found in Marcion (however the sources pan out for either E or T).

It is interesting that they do not seem to agree on other elements of this same part of the gospel.

Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:28 pm
by Secret Alias
Does T mention any other variants as far as you can see in this section? E seems to limit his focus to "falsifications" = variants here

Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:33 pm
by Secret Alias
but both are still agreeing on what they found in Marcion
Really? Does T ever say the Bezae variant is in Marcion? Not really