Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

The fact is, both scenarios have Marcion tolerating the Jewish stuff present in his own gospel. But for him to have cut out scads of Jewish references and tolerated the remaining ones is not measurably more likely, on its own merits, than that he simply left those bits in when he propagated a gospel text that he had inherited (in fact, it seems less likely to me, but I will not press that point here and now).

I would agree, however, that both of the above scenarios are more likely than that Marcion wrote the gospel from scratch and deliberately included those bits.

Where is this passage?

But Marcion, in his gospel, acknowledged the past existence of Jesus on earth, in a physical body and looking like a human, but not born from a woman.

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,

The fact is, both scenarios have Marcion tolerating the Jewish stuff present in his own gospel. But for him to have cut out scads of Jewish references and tolerated the remaining ones is not measurably more likely, on its own merits, than that he simply left those bits in when he propagated a gospel text that he had inherited (in fact, it seems less likely to me, but I will not press that point here and now).

I see two problems here:
1) You surmise the existence of a proto-Lukan gospel, of which we have no evidence.
2) Then you surmise that proto-Lukan gospel was about the same than gMarcion. Of course we have no evidence of that either, more so because we don't know about the make-up of your hypothetical proto-Lukan gospel.

... in a physical body

But a body that could pass through crowds (or crowds pass through) and fly.

Secret Alias wrote:Well does this sound like something historical to you?

he has hated me, and he has not kept his compact with me, I will create many gods, and I will fill up the world with them completely so that he will seek who might be God, but he will not find." And she created, they say, many idols, and she named them gods, and she filled the world with them. And the name of God who is the Lord of creatures was sunk in the midst of the names of many gods, and nowhere was He being found. And his progeny were led astray by them, and they were not worshipping him, because Matter lured them all back to herself, and she did not allow any one from among them to worship him. At that time, they say, the Lord of creatures was angered because they left him and paid attention to Matter. And angrily he was throwing into Gehenna those ones who were departing from their bodies, one after another. And he threw Adam into Gehenna because of that tree. And so he was continuing to throw everyone into Gehenna, up to twenty-nine centuries.

And, they say, the Good God and Stranger, who was residing in the third heaven, saw that between these two deceivers, the Lord of creatures and Matter, so many people had been lost and tortured, and it grieved him because of their having fallen into fire and their having been tortured.

He sent his Son to redeem them and 'to take on the likeness of a slave and to come into being in the form of man' [Phil 2:7] in the midst of the sons of the God of the Law. 'Heal' he said 'their lepers and give life to their dead and open their blind and make very great healings as a gift to them, so that the Lord of creatures might see you and be jealous and raise you on a cross.'

'And then having become dead you will descend into the Harsh (or, Hell) and you will raise them thence because it is not customary for the Harsh to accept life into its midst. And for the same reason you will go up to the cross so that you might resemble the dead and so that you might open the mouth of Hell to take you and enter into the middle of it and empty it.'

And when he had raised him on a cross, they say, he descended into the Harsh and emptied it. And having raised the souls from the middle of it he led them into the third heaven, to his Father.

And the Lord of creatures having become angry, in his anger he rent his robe and the curtain of of his temple. And he darkened his sun and he clothed his world in umber. And in his affliction he dwelt in mourning. Then when Jesus descended a second time in the form of his divinity to the Lord of creatures, he brought a lawsuit against him on account of his death.

And when the Lord of the world saw that divinity of Jesus, he discovered that another God apart from himself existed. And Jesus said to him, 'I am in litigation with you, and let no one judge between us, but the laws that you wrote.'

And when they had placed the Law in the middle, Jesus said to him "Did you not write in your Law, 'Whoever will murder he will die, (cf Num 35.30 - 34)?' and 'Whoever sheds the blood of a righteous one, his blood will be shed (Gen 9:6)?'" And he said, 'Yes, I wrote."

And Jesus said to him "So give yourself into my hands, so that I might slaughter and shed your blood, because rightly am I more lawful than you, and great favors have I bestowed on your creatures." And he began to reckon up those favors that he had bestowed on that one's creatures.

And when the Lord of creatures saw that he had gained victory over him - neither did he know what to say in reply because by his own Law he was condemned; nor did he find an answer to give because he came forth condemnation in exchange for his death - so having fallen down in supplication, he was praying to him "Whereas I sinned and slaughtered you ignorantly because I did not know that you were a god, but rather I considered you a man, let there be given to you in exchange, for revenge, all of those who wish to believe in you to take wheresoever you wish."

So Jesus having released him, he carried off Paul from the astonished ones, and he revealed to him their prices, and he sent him forth to preach that we have been bought for a price, and everyone who believes in Jesus has been sold by that Just One to the Good One.

This is the beginning of the sect of the Marcion, leaving aside many irrelevancies - and what not everyone knows, but rather a few from among them, and they transmit that teaching to one another by mouth. They say, "By means of the price of the Stranger we were purchased from the Lord of creatures," and "How or in what way is the purchase, this no one knows."

Someone can go through a crowd and still have a physical body, as long that each person in front of that someone goes aside in order to clear the way. I do not think "Luke", or Marcion, or the hypothetical author of the hypothetical proto-Lukan gospel, imagined Jesus temporarily turned into a ghost in order to go through a crowd in Nazareth.
About flying, I do not know where you got that.

This is certainly a highly imaginatively creative text and hence I suppose visionary in a certain meaning of the word.

You did well in silencing the unspeakable teachings of the Carpocrations ... the things they keep saying about the divinely inspired Gospel according to Mark some are altogether falsifications, and others, even if they do contain some true elements, nevertheless are not reported truly.

Secret Alias wrote:

This is certainly a highly imaginatively creative text and hence I suppose visionary in a certain meaning of the word.

But the normal portrait of the Marcionites is that they were 'literalists' (in the same misuse of the term which supposes that the Samaritans couldn't have had halakhah). Assuming for a moment that Eznik's report is accurate (and it is generally supported by what Ephrem also reports) it's hard to square this with the Catholic Jesus 'history.'

Bernard Muller wrote:to Secret Alias,

But a body that could pass through crowds (or crowds pass through) and fly.

Someone can go through a crowd and still have a physical body, as long that each person in front of that someone goes aside in order to clear the way. I do not think "Luke", or Marcion, or the hypothetical author of the hypothetical proto-Lukan gospel, imagined Jesus temporarily turned into a ghost in order to go through a crowd in Nazareth.
About flying, I do not know where you got that.

Cordially, Bernard