Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Great OP, Ben, enjoyed reading it and I hope that you can do something like that with another example that stands out to me (I want to find one without any obvious OT parallels). Some of the things you wrote that stood out to me are:

"Neither Jonah nor the Psalms seem to mention telling stories or parables on the water, so let us keep this as a possible sole parallel to the Odyssey for now, with the single proviso that, while Jesus is actually going out of his way to teach, Odysseus is really just answering Aeolus's questions."

"Jesus does still the storm, and in Psalm 107.29 the storm "is calmed into a gentle breeze, and its waves are still." Furthermore, Mark 4.39 says that Jesus rebuked (ἐπετίμησεν) the wind, whereas Psalm 104.7 says, "At your rebuke [the waters] shall flee." Odysseus basically curls up into a ball and does nothing."

But this is the point for MacDonald since in his theory Jesus is supposed to be better than Odysseus.

"But I do not think that even this Homeric detail [sleeping on something soft in the stern], though possibly primary (in the sense above), is constitutive of the Marcan account; that is, I do not think that Mark (or anybody) read this detail in Homer and on that basis decided to craft a narrative about Jesus. Rather, once that decision was made, this was the sort of welcome detail that might come to mind while fleshing out the narrative."

I could live with this being nothing more than "the sort of welcome detail that might come to mind while fleshing out the narrative," but there are arguably others, and to whatever extent they helped flesh out the narrative, I would expect the earliest Greco-Roman converts to have brought this kind of cultural baggage with them.

John2 wrote:Great OP, Ben, enjoyed reading it and I hope that you can do something like that with another example that stands out to me (I want to find one without any obvious OT parallels).

Thanks. I would welcome that kind of pericope to look at.

Some of the things you wrote that stood out to me are:

"Neither Jonah nor the Psalms seem to mention telling stories or parables on the water, so let us keep this as a possible sole parallel to the Odyssey for now, with the single proviso that, while Jesus is actually going out of his way to teach, Odysseus is really just answering Aeolus's questions."

"Jesus does still the storm, and in Psalm 107.29 the storm "is calmed into a gentle breeze, and its waves are still." Furthermore, Mark 4.39 says that Jesus rebuked (ἐπετίμησεν) the wind, whereas Psalm 104.7 says, "At your rebuke [the waters] shall flee." Odysseus basically curls up into a ball and does nothing."

But this is the point for MacDonald since in his theory Jesus is supposed to be better than Odysseus.

I totally get that. My point here is that this, again, is not a parallel that can stand on its own; it cannot be what first draws our attention to a possible Homeric link. Two stories about a storm at sea, one with a captain who performs well under pressure and the other with a captain who promptly adopts the fetal position, are not necessarily connected. What I found it easy to do with Jonah and with the Psalms was to find clear, primary parallels that would draw our attention in the first place; with Homer this was a bit harder; however, as I mentioned and you noticed, the detail about sleeping on something soft in the stern of the ship does stand out as a striking image.

I could live with this being nothing more than "the sort of welcome detail that might come to mind while fleshing out the narrative," but there are arguably others, and to whatever extent they helped flesh out the narrative, I would expect the earliest Greco-Roman converts to have brought this kind of cultural baggage with them.

Agreed.

Ben.

to Ben,

The main item is 107.29: "He caused the storm to be still, so that the waves of the sea were hushed." For my money, that is the source of the miracle itself: finding a way to make Jesus do what Yahweh does in this passage.

I still do not see why "Mark" had to know about Psalm 107 in order to end his story about calming the sea. There is no close textual connection, as there is one (strong) in Jonah.
There is also one (weak) of those in 2 Kings about the the miraculous feeding. Both stories say that the food is presented (set) before them/a hundred men (even if the Greek words are not the same). I find that expression fairly realistic in 2 Kings (one loaf of bread for ten men, five on each side of the table), but in gMark, that would mean tiny crumb of food would be set by the disciples before each group of 100 or 50 seated people, a rather ridiculous proposition. That makes me think "Mark" used "set before" (but not with the same Greek words as in the LXX) because of 2 Ki 4:42-44. But I may be wrong. If it is the case, then any close connection with 2 Kings 4:42-44 is not certain.
However, it is very possible that "Mark" remembered about 2 Kings and looked for an opportunity to have Jesus outperform Elisha. That opportunity would be in the testimony of the disciples picking up left overs from a feasting crowd eating together outside their town (twice).

The final item is the plurality of ships in 107.23, the purpose for which I explained in the OP.

If "Mark" wanted to say Jesus calming the waves also saved "other boats with him", he made a very poor job at that. These other boats are never mentioned again in the stories about calming the sea and Jesus' adventures in the Gentile shore. I think this mention of other boats with him is awkwardly placed, looks to be an add-on and therefore may be an interpolation (yes based of Psalm 107).

Cordially, Bernard.

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,

The main item is 107.29: "He caused the storm to be still, so that the waves of the sea were hushed." For my money, that is the source of the miracle itself: finding a way to make Jesus do what Yahweh does in this passage.

I still do not see why "Mark" had to know about Psalm 107 in order to end his story about calming the sea. There is no close textual connection, as there is one (strong) in Jonah.

See? Parallelophobia gone wild.

There is also one (weak) of those in 2 Kings about the the miraculous feeding. Both stories say that the food is presented (set) before them/a hundred men (even if the Greek words are not the same). I find that expression fairly realistic in 2 Kings (one loaf of bread for ten men, five on each side of the table), but in gMark, that would mean tiny crumb of food would be set by the disciples before each group of 100 or 50 seated people, a rather ridiculous proposition. That makes me think "Mark" used "set before" (but not with the same Greek words as in the LXX) because of 2 Ki 4:42-44. But I may be wrong. If it is the case, then the connection with 2 Kings is not certain.

The final item is the plurality of ships in 107.23, the purpose for which I explained in the OP.

If "Mark" wanted to say Jesus calming the waves also saved "other boats with him", he made a very poor job at that.

Your attitude toward parallels is actually kind of adorable. It is reminiscent of Ron Swanson's attitude toward metaphors:



If Herman Melville wanted to speak to the human condition, he made a very poor job of it, right?

Bernard Muller wrote:These other boats are never mentioned again in the stories about calming the sea and Jesus' adventures in the Gentile shore. I think this mention of other boats with him is awkwardly placed, looks to be an add-on and therefore maybe an interpolation (yes based of Psalm 107).

I note with interest that your hypothetical interpolator is looking to Psalm 107 for inspiration.

Ben.

to Ben,
I added up on my previous posting:

However, it is very possible that "Mark" remembered about 2 Kings and looked for an opportunity to have Jesus outperform Elisha. That opportunity would be in the testimony of the disciples picking up left overs from a feasting crowd eating together outside their town (twice).

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,
I added up on my previous posting:

However, it is very possible that "Mark" remembered about 2 Kings and looked for an opportunity to have Jesus outperform Elisha. That opportunity would be in the testimony of the disciples picking up left overs from a feasting crowd eating together outside their town (twice).

I still do not understand your reluctance to see Mark (or other authors) drawing upon sacred texts for their inspiration in writing stories about Jesus.

to Ben,

I still do not understand your reluctance to see Mark (or other authors) drawing upon sacred texts for their inspiration in writing stories about Jesus.

I understand your insistence to see "Mark" drawing upon sacred texts for inventing complete stories about Jesus, when the evidence he did is rather weak: Mark's gospel literary genre (according to you).

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,

I still do not understand your reluctance to see Mark (or other authors) drawing upon sacred texts for their inspiration in writing stories about Jesus.

I understand your insistence to see "Mark" drawing upon sacred texts for inventing complete stories about Jesus, when the evidence he did is rather weak: Mark's gospel literary genre (according to you).

My view of Mark's genre in no way requires Mark (or any tradents before or after him) to have drawn on the scriptures for stories or story ideas. It allows such a thing, but does not require it. But where the parallels are obvious and just jump off the page at me, I have to pay attention.

to Ben,

My view of Mark's genre in no way requires Mark (or any tradents before or after him) to have drawn on the scriptures for stories or story ideas. It allows such a thing, but does not require it. But where the parallels are obvious and just jump off the page at me, I have to pay attention.

I find rather far-fetched that "Mark" would have drawn his "calming of the sea" by combining part of 'Jonah" with part of Psalm 107, if his purpose was to invent a story proving that Jesus has God's power over wind & waves.
Then why have Jesus deal with a mere squall rather than a big storm, as in 'Jonah" and Psalm 107 (& Odyssey)?
That would make him a little god, not what "Mark" would be wanting to project.
That's one reason why I think the squall was true, Jesus' boat was in danger to sink because filling up with water, but the squall dissipated before it was too late, after Jesus "threw" words at it (Jesus' intervention before the squall ended being a coincidence. Squalls on the lake of Tiberias are known for their short duration).

Paying close attention to parallels which jump off the page at you, is no evidence for "Mark" remembering part of Psalm 107 (among 149 others) and inventing the ending of "calming of the sea" from it.

Cordially, Bernard

neilgodfrey wrote:

arnoldo wrote:You know, if you listen to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and watch The Wizard of Oz in the right state of mind amazing parallels appear.

How about actually getting back to Samuel Sandmel's article on Parallelomania to know exactly what the problem is. So many people facilely poo-pooh literary parallels in a manner quite contrary to the problem raised by Sandmel and that demonstrate an utter lack of awareness of comparative literary studies generally.

The difference is stark -- and the facile objections when it comes to the Gospels and their contemporary literature are logically fallacious and ignorant.

Parallelomania/parallels has become something quite different from what Sandmel meant by it and it has in fact become the equivalent of a four letter word lazily and ignorantly dished out when actual knowledge and argument is apparently considered too bothersome.

Have you considered that Egyptian mythology also has an instance of the sea being calmed?

Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection By D. M. Murdock, Acharya S