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Re: The calming of the sea.

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:33 pm
by Bernard Muller
to Ben,
Your definitions include "great". I quoted "great gale of wind" from the RSV. So I do not see where there is disagreement.
Sure "Mark" used "great", even if he had to deal with a weather event which was only throwing water into a low-lying row boat.
I can see some discrepancy here: "Mark" called the gale of wind mightier than it had been described by eyewitness(es). All of that to have Jesus look more powerful & divine into rebuking the waves.

Cordially, Bernard

Re: The calming of the sea.

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:40 pm
by Ben C. Smith
Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,
Your definitions include "great". I quoted "great gale of wind" from the RSV. So I do not see where there is disagreement.
There is disagreement exactly where you stated, and I quote:
Bernard Muller wrote:"Mark" did not describe the storm as a mighty one....
That was incorrect, and I promptly disagreed with it.

Re: The calming of the sea.

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:42 pm
by Bernard Muller
Washington's plan required the crossing to begin as soon as it was dark enough to conceal their movements on the river, but most of the troops did not reach the crossing point until about 6 pm, about ninety minutes after sunset. The weather got progressively worse, turning from drizzle to rain to sleet and snow. "It blew a hurricane," recalled one soldier.
Obviously another exaggeration. No hurricane would blow there at that time of the year then (no global warming yet).
"Hurricane" does not match "turning from drizzle to rain to sleet and snow".

Cordially, Bernard

Re: The calming of the sea.

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:41 pm
by Bernard Muller
Bernard Muller wrote:
"Mark" did not describe the storm as a mighty one....

That was incorrect, and I promptly disagreed with it.
You are confusing between "call" and "describe".
"Mark" called that weather event "great gale of wind".
"Mark" described that weather event as the (top) of waves filling up with water a low-lying row boat (which would make that weather event just a squall).

When I was in Greece, I was stuck in Hydra because of a storm. The ferry (a large ship) I was depending on was stopped. I, and a few tourists, hired a "sea taxi" (a speed boat with cabin). We went through huge waves to Poros. The way the speed boat worked: it jumped between the waves, then more or less submarined through the next wave. I know what a storm on the Mediterranee looks like. I can guarantee that a regular row boat would not have lasted more than a few seconds on that sea, at this time.

Next, pictures from Nazare (Portugal)
Image
The fishing boats used in the wide open Atlantic ocean

Image
Stormy waves.

Cordially, Bernard

Re: The calming of the sea.

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:54 pm
by neilgodfrey
arnoldo wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:
arnoldo wrote:You know, if you listen to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and watch The Wizard of Oz in the right state of mind amazing parallels appear.
How about actually getting back to Samuel Sandmel's article on Parallelomania to know exactly what the problem is. So many people facilely poo-pooh literary parallels in a manner quite contrary to the problem raised by Sandmel and that demonstrate an utter lack of awareness of comparative literary studies generally.

The difference is stark -- and the facile objections when it comes to the Gospels and their contemporary literature are logically fallacious and ignorant.

Parallelomania/parallels has become something quite different from what Sandmel meant by it and it has in fact become the equivalent of a four letter word lazily and ignorantly dished out when actual knowledge and argument is apparently considered too bothersome.
Have you considered that Egyptian mythology also has an instance of the sea being calmed?

Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection By D. M. Murdock, Acharya S
Why stop at Egypt's myths? Chinese and Cambodian myths also have taming of seas, you know. You obviously don't know the first thing about the normative and common fields of comparative literature.

It seems comparative literary studies is a completely alien concept to you. You should check out all those rows of books in the library that you've never wandered past before, or have a look at some of those other curriculum studies that have presumably left you mystified.

(You also know I have argued at length against the parallelomania of Robert Tulip and astrotheology with all its Egyptian myth comparisons -- which have nothing to do with comparative literary studies. Bizarre that you do not even know the difference.)

I guess spitting out the word "parallelomania" like a four letter word is much easier for you than actually reading and engaging with Sandmel's article.

Re: The calming of the sea.

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:56 pm
by Ben C. Smith
Bernard Muller wrote:You are confusing between "call" and "describe".
"Mark" called that weather event "great gale of wind".
"Mark" described that weather event as the (top) of waves filling up with water a low-lying row boat (which would make that weather event just a squall).
You are splitting hairs and then splitting the split ends again. Mark described the event as a mighty storm. That is a perfectly good English sentence. Whatever point you were trying to make about Mark not describing the storm as big enough or whatever... that point is simply void.

I liked the photos, though.

Re: The calming of the sea.

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:25 pm
by Bernard Muller
to Ben,
You are splitting hairs and then splitting the split ends again. Mark described the event as a mighty storm. That is a perfectly good English sentence. Whatever point you were trying to make about Mark not describing the storm as big enough or whatever... that point is simply void.
The Greek can also mean "a great gale of wind". If you want to keep your "mighty storm" you have to add up "of wind" as "a mighty storm of wind".
"mighty storm" is perfectly good English, but that does not mean your translation is in sync with what follows, which you declare unsignificant: "... and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already filling." (RSV).
I don't think the low-lying row boat filling up with water because of waves measures up with your "mighty storm".
Instead of looking for evidence in Psalm 107, you should pay close attention to Mk 4:37b.

Cordially, Bernard

Re: The calming of the sea.

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:28 am
by Ulan
Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,
You are splitting hairs and then splitting the split ends again. Mark described the event as a mighty storm. That is a perfectly good English sentence. Whatever point you were trying to make about Mark not describing the storm as big enough or whatever... that point is simply void.
The Greek can also mean "a great gale of wind". If you want to keep your "mighty storm" you have to add up "of wind" as "a mighty storm of wind".
"mighty storm" is perfectly good English, but that does not mean your translation is in sync with what follows, which you declare unsignificant: "... and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already filling." (RSV).
I don't think the low-lying row boat filling up with water because of waves measures up with your "mighty storm".
Instead of looking for evidence in Psalm 107, you should pay close attention to Mk 4:37b.
Bernhard, I really have no idea why your considerations would have any relevance to the topic at all. Mark wants to connect his stories to the sea, which is already visible in the choice to call that lake "Sea of Galilee". Of course, at the sea you have mighty storms. This is not about the weather in Galilee, but about references to seafaring and the power of gods.

Re: The calming of the sea.

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:37 am
by Ben C. Smith
Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,
The Greek can also mean "a great gale of wind". If you want to keep your "mighty storm" you have to add up "of wind" as "a mighty storm of wind".
That is absolutely fine with me.
"mighty storm" is perfectly good English, but that does not mean your translation is in sync with what follows, which you declare unsignificant: "... and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already filling." (RSV).
I believe the boat filling up with water is indicative that the boat is in danger of sinking. Am I mistaken?
I don't think the low-lying row boat filling up with water because of waves measures up with your "mighty storm".
You mean Mark's mighty storm. I was just translating. And yes, as I mentioned, I am fine with "mighty storm of wind". Jonah 1.4 also attributes the chaos to the wind. So does Psalm 107.25.
Instead of looking for evidence in Psalm 107, you should pay close attention to Mk 4:37b.
Like, for example, how Mark simply calls it a boat, as in Jonah and the Psalm (as discussed in the OP), rather than a rowboat?

Ben.

Re: The calming of the sea.

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:36 am
by John2
Regarding arnoldo's citation of Justin Martyr's attack on Greek literature, it should be noted that even though Justin was opposed to believing in the myths of Homer, he was still very familiar with them:

"For first they say that Agamemnon, abetting the extravagant lust of his brother, and his madness and unrestrained desire, readily gave even his daughter to be sacrificed, and troubled all Greece that he might rescue Helen, who had been ravished by the leprous shepherd. But when in the course of the war they took captives, Agamemnon was himself taken captive by Chryseis, and for Briseis' sake kindled a feud with the son of Thetis. And Pelides himself, who crossed the river, overthrew Troy, and subdued Hector, this your hero became the slave of Polyxena, and was conquered by a dead Amazon; and putting off the god-fabricated armour, and donning the hymeneal robe, he became a sacrifice of love in the temple of Apollo. And the Ithacan Ulysses made a virtue of a vice. And indeed his sailing past the Sirens gave evidence that he was destitute of worthy prudence, because he could not depend on his prudence for stopping his ears. Ajax, son of Telamon, who bore the shield of sevenfold ox-hide, went mad when he was defeated in the contest with Ulysses for the amour."

Also, Christians continued to teach Homer well into the fourth century CE even though they didn't believe in it, which prompted the emperor Julian to ban it (and note that he places Homer first in his list of classical writers):

"Was it not the gods who revealed all their learning to Homer, Hesiod, Demosthenes, Herodotus, Thucydides, Isocrates and Lysias? Did not these men think that they were consecrated, some to Hermes, others to the Muses? I think it is absurd that men who expound the works of these writers should dishonour the gods whom they used to honour. Yet, though I think this absurd, I do not say that they ought to change their opinions and then instruct the young. But I give them this choice: either not to teach what they do not think admirable, or, if they wish to teach, let them first really persuade their pupils that neither Homer nor Hesiod nor any of these writers whom they expound and have declared to be guilty of impiety, folly and error in regard to the gods, is such as they declare. For since they make a livelihood and receive pay from the works of those writers, they thereby confess that they are most shamefully greedy of gain, and that, for the sake of a few drachmae, they would put up with anything."

http://www.earlychurchtexts.com/public/ ... achers.htm

So whether Christians believed it or not, they knew it.