Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Bernard Muller wrote: But any relationship between 1 Cor 15:4 and (unevidenced) Hosea 6:2 is very unlikely because Hosea 6:2 is in itself out-of-context (without looking to the adjacent verses) and is not modified (for a good reason: it's not quoted).

It's not clear what you mean by "(for a good reason: it's not quoted)", but here's all of Hosea 6 (RSV) -

1. “Come, let us return to the Lord;
   for he has torn, that he may heal us;
   he has stricken, and he will bind us up.
2. After two days he will revive us;
   on the third day he will raise us up,
   that we may live before him.
3. Let us know, let us press on to know the Lord;
   his going forth is sure as the dawn;
   he will come to us as the showers,
   as the spring rains that water the earth.”
4. What shall I do with you, O E′phraim?
   What shall I do with you, O Judah?
   Your love is like a morning cloud,
   like the dew that goes early away.
5. Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets,
   I have slain them by the words of my mouth,
   and my judgment goes forth as the light.[a]
6. For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
   the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings.
7. But at/[like] Adam they transgressed the covenant;
   there they dealt faithlessly with me.
8. Gilead is a city of evildoers,
   tracked with blood.
9. As robbers lie in wait[c] for a man,
   so the priests are banded together;[d]
   they murder on the way to Shechem,
   yea, they commit villainy.
10. In the house of Israel I have seen a horrible thing;
    E′phraim’s harlotry is there, Israel is defiled.
11. For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed.
    When I would restore the fortunes of my people,
    
    1. Hosea 6:5 Gk Syr: Heb thy judgment goes forth
    2. Hosea 6:7 Cn: Heb like
    3. Hosea 6:9 Cn: Heb uncertain
    4. Hosea 6:9 Syr: Heb a company

The main difference with the Jesus Christ of Nazareth story is

• "For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice"

It was Jesus that was 'sacrificed'; though, of course, on the third day he was raised up (ie. Hos 6:2) --- & for 'steadfast love'
.

MrMacSon wrote:It's not clear what you mean by "(for a good reason: it's not quoted)" but here's all of Hosea 6 (RSV)

He means that Paul does not quote Hosea 6.2 verbatim, I think. (That is about the only thing I do understand so far of what he is trying to day, and I may be wrong even about that.) "[Jesus] was raised on the third day" is at best a loose paraphrase of Hosea 6.2.

But, of course, a phrase like "according to the scriptures" would be a natural way to summarize a paraphrase.

Ben wrote:Or what about Hosea 13.14?

Bernard Muller wrote:Ditto, except Paul modified Hosea 13:14.

A significant point is that many passages in the NT are modified passages from the OT. Here's most of Hosea 13 -

1. When E′phraim spoke, men trembled;
   he was exalted in Israel;
   but he incurred guilt through Ba′al and died.
2. And now they sin more and more,
   and make for themselves molten images,
   idols skilfully made of their silver,
   all of them the work of craftsmen.
   Sacrifice to these, they say.[a]
   Men kiss calves!
3. Therefore they shall be like the morning mist
   or like the dew that goes early away,
   like the chaff that swirls from the threshing floor
   or like smoke from a window.
4. I am the Lord your God
   from the land of Egypt;
   you know no God but me,
   and besides me there is no saviour.
5. It was I who knew you in the wilderness,
   in the land of drought;
6. but when they had fed to the full,
   they were filled, and their heart was lifted up;
   therefore they forgot me.
   
7. So I will be to them like a lion,
   like a leopard I will lurk beside the way.
   
8. I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs,
   I will tear open their breast,
   and there I will devour them like a lion,
   as a wild beast would rend them.
   
9. I will destroy you, O Israel;
   who[c] can help you?
   
10. Where[d] now is your king, to save you;
    where are all[e] your princes,[f] to defend you[g]—
    those of whom you said,
    “Give me a king and princes”?
    
11. I have given you kings in my anger,
    and I have taken them away in my wrath.
    
12. The iniquity of E′phraim is bound up,
    his sin is kept in store.
    
13. The pangs of childbirth come for him,
    but he is an unwise son;
    for now he does not present himself
    at the mouth of the womb.
    
14. 14 Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol?
    Shall I redeem them from Death?
    O Death, where[h] are your plagues?
    O Sheol, where[x] is your destruction?
    Compassion is hid from my eyes.
    
15. Though he may flourish as the reed plant,[y]
    the east wind, the wind of the Lord, shall come,
    rising from the wilderness ...
    
    
    1. Footnotes:
       
       
    2. Hosea 13:2 Gk: Heb 'to these they say sacrifices of'
       
    3. Hosea 13:6 Cn: Heb according to their pasture
       
    4. Hosea 13:9 Gk Syr: Heb for in me
       
    5. Hosea 13:10 Gk Syr Vg: Heb I will be
       
    6. Hosea 13:10 Cn: Heb in all
       
    7. Hosea 13:10 Cn: Heb cities
       
    8. Hosea 13:10 Cn Compare Gk: Heb and your judges
       
    9. Hosea 13:14 Gk Syr: Heb I will be
       x Hosea 13:14 Gk Syr: Heb I will be
       y Hosea 13:15 Cn: Heb among brothers

The NT narrative of Jesus Christ is an advancement on this --- providing a saviour ... "rising from the wilderness"

.
It's as if people saw a new way of looking at things - as if people familiar with, or becoming familiar with, the Jewish scriptures were (i) looking at things in a new way eg. seeking salvation of their faith or their tribe (or both); or (ii) referencing the Jewish scriptures against other savior-referencing religions such as the Egyptian ones; or (ii) a combination of scenarios

Ben C. Smith wrote: Or what about Hosea 13.14?

14 Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol?
Shall I redeem them from death?
O Death, where are your thorns?
O Sheol, where is your sting?
Compassion will be hidden from My sight.

This is obviously a summons to death/Sheol to do its worst against Ephraim. Yet when Paul quotes this verse in 1 Corinthians 15.54-55...:

54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”

...it becomes a taunt against death after having been defeated!

Note that Biblegateway gives an alternative for Hosea 1:14 - "O Sheol, where is your sting/destruction?" -

• as "O Sheol, I will be [your sting/destruction]", in the RSV, at least.

.

to Ben,

How does that differ from the question at hand? 1 Corinthians 15.4 would be ignoring the context of Hosea 6.2.

I answered that:

But any relationship between 1 Cor 15:4 and (unevidenced) Hosea 6:2 is very unlikely because Hosea 6:2 is in itself out-of-context (without looking to the adjacent verses) and is not modified (for a good reason: it's not quoted).
Yes we are a very long stretch for your two examples and the one of robert j.

In other words, if Paul or the interpolator were inspired by Hosea 6:2, a close (albeit modified) version of Hosea 6:2 would be featured (but I do not see how it could be done because of the two "us" and the "we" in it ). I just do not see that in 1 Cor 15:4. But I see a much closer relationship between 1 Cor 15:4 & Lk 24:45-46.

I think you and MrMacSon and outhouse are getting very deep into parallelomania. You are not the only ones doing that: apologists, theologians & other Christians have been doing that for centuries (but drew different conclusions: in order to declare everything about Christ had been prophesied in the OT).

Cordially, Bernard

John2 wrote:Outhouse wrote:

Nowhere in the pre-Pauline scriptures there is anything about someone rising on the third day

My understanding is that 1 Cor. 15:4 ("he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures") is based on Hos. 6:2.

http://biblehub.com/hosea/6-2.htm

Likewise it seems reasonable to suppose that 1 Cor. 15:3 ("Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures") is based on Is. 53.

You mistaken

I did not quote such

Bernard Muller wrote: I did not assume there was an interpolator: I demonstrated it with 8 arguments. Ant I said "it seems" our interpolator knew about gLuke. Why? because of the close resemblance between 1 Cor 15:3b-4 and Lk 24:45:46.


Cordially, Bernard

Sir your still assuming. Your wording is that of certainty and your 8 arguments are not persuasive.


Most critical scholars think differently, and I have no particular problem with their findings. But that was just one example of many of your certainties I do not hold.


Sometimes not knowing is the smartest answer. Not only that you should be well aware that multiple traditions existed and making ties as such removes many possibilities we know took place in the evolution of these traditions.

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,

How does that differ from the question at hand? 1 Corinthians 15.4 would be ignoring the context of Hosea 6.2.

I answered that:

But any relationship between 1 Cor 15:4 and (unevidenced) Hosea 6:2 is very unlikely because Hosea 6:2 is in itself out-of-context (without looking to the adjacent verses) and is not modified (for a good reason: it's not quoted).
Yes we are a very long stretch for your two examples and the one of robert j.

In other words, if Paul or the interpolator were inspired by Hosea 6:2, a close (albeit modified) version of Hosea 6:2 would be featured (but I do not see how it could be done because of the two "us" and the "we" in it ). I just do not see that in 1 Cor 15:4...

What do you mean by 'unevidenced' Hosea 6:2 ??

What do you mean by 'a close (albeit modified) version of Hosea 6:2 would be featured' ??

Bernard Muller wrote: ... if Paul or the interpolator were inspired by Hosea 6:2, a close (albeit modified) version of Hosea 6:2 would be featured (but I do not see how it could be done because of the two "us" and the "we" in it ). I just do not see that in 1 Cor 15:4. But I see a much closer relationship between 1 Cor 15:4 & Lk 24:45-46.

Similarities between 1 Cor 15:4 (or 1 Cor 15:3-4 and Lk 24:45-46) does not negate the similarities between 1 Cor 15:3-4 and the beginning of Hosea 6, especially Hos 6:2.

It highlights the similarities between all 3 passages -

Hosea 6:2	1 Cor 15:3-4	Luke 24:44-46
1 Come, let us return to the Lord; for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and he will bind us up. 2 After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him. 3 Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth. 7 like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me... 9 As robbers lie in wait for a man, so the priests band together... 11 For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed, when I restore the fortunes of my people.	. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures ... Most of the rest of 1 Cor 15 - 1 Cor 15:12-58 - seems relevant, too.	. 44 ... Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem ..."