Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Ben C. Smith wrote:Can you give an example from the gospels of a pericope or verse or theme that may fall into this category?

Almost any parable dealing with the poor or many others attributed to the Jesus character.

If Jesus existed he was certainly a student or disciple of Johns and took over after his murder, these teachings did not originate in a vacuum and would have been Johns teachings as well as typical Galilean teachings John learned.

I don't think the Jesus character originated any parable recorded, only repeated what he was taught. Hand worker turned teacher in a supposed short amount of time would not have time to be to creative IMHO.

Not only that the Hellenist in the Diaspora who found the martyrdom theology valuable, would have been trying to fill in the back story by gather teachings attributed to him. In this process they had no way to differentiate the teachings of john or Jesus based on oral traditions collected.

This sounds like a Jewish version of my category "Christian teaching". Does that sound right?

Not really. Its an evolution of Aramaic Jewish theology to that of Hellenistic Proselyte theology.

I would guess the teaching of Aramaic Galilean theology would be night and day different from Hellenistic Diaspora Proselyte "jewish" theology.

So I find "Jewish version" to be a bit vague in this context.

And can you give an example?

Beyond it being a certainty that Christianity originated from Judaism and ended up being a practice of the Hellenistic Diaspora, and realizing the historicity of John the Baptist is a large part of this tradition in origin, dictates we start looking for an origin starting with John.

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The Corpus Hermeticum

• http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/herm/

II. References and Fragments in the Fathers

1. Justin Martyr
2. Athenagoras
3. Clement of Alexandria
4. Tertullian
5. Cyprian
6. Arnobius
7. Lactantius
8. Augustine
9. Cyril of Alexandria
10. Suidas
11. Anonymous

http://gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/TGH-v3/index.html

"In the “Prolegomena” we have established an unbroken line of tradition in which Gnosis and Mystery-teaching have been handed down through pre-Christian, Pagan and Jewish, and through Christian hands. We have further shown that the Gnosis of our Trismegistic documents is a simpler form than that of the great doctors of the Christianised Gnosis, Basilides and Valentinus, who flourished in the first quarter of the second century. The earlier of our sermons, therefore, represent one of the main streams, perhaps the main stream, of the Unchristianised Gnosis. We have further shown that, together with many other schools, both our Pœmandrists and the writers of the New Testament documents use a common theological or theosophical nomenclature, and have a common body of ideas.

"What is clear from all this is that there is no plagiarism, no deliberate copying, no logoklopia of other men’s secrets, though there was the freest drawing on a common fund. The condition of affairs and the nature of the problems involved are such, that any theory of plagiarism at once becomes a two-edged sword; he who says that Trismegisticism copied from Christianity, can at once have his argument reversed into the form that Christianity copied from Trismegisticism."

http://gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/TGH-v3/th346.html

Bernard Muller wrote:The fall of Jerusalem, its destruction and killing of its people (Mk 12:1, 9: 13:1-2, 14).

That sounds like it would be covered under "anecdotes from Jewish history/historians".

False Christs and prophets threatening to destroy Mark's community (Mk 13:6, 21-22).

And that sounds like "invention for the sake of theology".

I am sure there are various shades of meaning and influence possible, but those do seem like they belong to the same overall category.

Ben.

outhouse wrote:

Ben C. Smith wrote:Can you give an example from the gospels of a pericope or verse or theme that may fall into this category?

Almost any parable dealing with the poor or many others attributed to the Jesus character.

Would that differ from "inventions for the sake of theology" in some way? Maybe I could expand "theology" into "theology and praxis" or some such.

If Jesus existed he was certainly a student or disciple of Johns and took over after his murder, these teachings did not originate in a vacuum and would have been Johns teachings as well as typical Galilean teachings John learned.

That would be a Jewish version of Jewish teaching and/or prophecy. I may have to expand the category somewhat.

I would guess the teaching of Aramaic Galilean theology would be night and day different from Hellenistic Diaspora Proselyte "jewish" theology.

Granted. But it is still the same kind of source.

MrMacSon wrote:.
The Corpus Hermeticum

• http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/herm/

II. References and Fragments in the Fathers

1. Justin Martyr
2. Athenagoras
3. Clement of Alexandria
4. Tertullian
5. Cyprian
6. Arnobius
7. Lactantius
8. Augustine
9. Cyril of Alexandria
10. Suidas
11. Anonymous

http://gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/TGH-v3/index.html

"In the “Prolegomena” we have established an unbroken line of tradition in which Gnosis and Mystery-teaching have been handed down through pre-Christian, Pagan and Jewish, and through Christian hands. We have further shown that the Gnosis of our Trismegistic documents is a simpler form than that of the great doctors of the Christianised Gnosis, Basilides and Valentinus, who flourished in the first quarter of the second century. The earlier of our sermons, therefore, represent one of the main streams, perhaps the main stream, of the Unchristianised Gnosis. We have further shown that, together with many other schools, both our Pœmandrists and the writers of the New Testament documents use a common theological or theosophical nomenclature, and have a common body of ideas.

"What is clear from all this is that there is no plagiarism, no deliberate copying, no logoklopia of other men’s secrets, though there was the freest drawing on a common fund. The condition of affairs and the nature of the problems involved are such, that any theory of plagiarism at once becomes a two-edged sword; he who says that Trismegisticism copied from Christianity, can at once have his argument reversed into the form that Christianity copied from Trismegisticism."

http://gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/TGH-v3/th346.html

Thanks. I will add "gnostic speculations".

Actual communication with spirits/demons/god

to Ben,

That sounds like it would be covered under "anecdotes from Jewish history/historians".

The fall of Jerusalem: just an anecdote? You must be kidding.

False Christs and prophets threatening to destroy Mark's community (Mk 13:6, 21-22).

And that sounds like "invention for the sake of theology".

How do you know it is an invention? aren't you biased here?

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,

That sounds like it would be covered under "anecdotes from Jewish history/historians".

The fall of Jerusalem: just an anecdote? You must be kidding.

No, the fall of Jerusalem is not an anecdote; but the examples I gave were anecdotes from relevant history, including the war for Jerusalem. I do not think it is worth creating another entire category for "big events" in history as opposed to "small events", any more than it would be to create an entire category for "long gospel sources" as opposed to "short gospel texts", but I am more than willing to change my wording from "anecdotes" to something else. Do you have any suggestions?

The Passion Narrative seems agreed upon by critical scholars as a source underlying all four gospels. (Already listed by Ben in OP along with Q and Signs Source.)

Ben C. Smith wrote: This list is off the top of my head. No way can it be exhaustive. What are some others? (Please include an example with each item so I know for certain what is meant.)
Ben.

JW:
Great list Ben. An important source is predecessor Gospel word(s) that subsequent is reacting to. The most important example in Christian writings is:

Mark 16

And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid.

Verses:

Matthew 28

And they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring his disciples word.

The forged endings of GMark fall into the same category (modern thinking/belief that the original ending was lost is the same reaction since there is no evidence for it).

The average Christian thinks the Gospels are parallel versions of the same story by independent witnesses. They have no conception that the two subsequent Gospels are primarily editing reaction to the original and they will not learn the truth in Church. It's our job than to educate them.


Joseph

The New Porphyry