Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Bernard Muller wrote:

Gnostic speculations in story form (the Word made flesh in the Johannine prologue).

In the earlier Philo of Alexandria's works, the Word is the Son of God. In Paul's epistles, the pre-existent Son of God acquires flesh when on earth (from a human mother and father). So no need to go to later Gnostic speculations for that.

'The Word' - ie. the Logos/Logoi - and "Son of God" are terms that were also present in the Codex Hereticum (or wider hermetic literature or 'hermetism'), so those terms may have come from Philo or may be non-Philo in origin. Hence, they may have got into Johannine thought or via Philo or via hermetism, via another route, or a combination.

Bernard Muller wrote: BTW, you do not have anything about Philo of Alexandria as source materials for the Christian gospels. Maybe because Philo's ideas got adopted by Paul early on?

'The Word' - ie. the Logos/Logoi - and "Son of God" are terms that were present in the Codex Hereticum (or wider hermetic literature or 'hermetism'), so those terms likely preceded Philo.

Secret Alias wrote:

Fair enough: I see my mistake (edited^^).

No it wasn't that. Just forget it

to secret alias,

Why do we keeping referring to them as "false" messiahs? Are we distinguishing here? How do we distinguish? What is a true messiah? How would we know?

Because that's what "Mark" called them:
"False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect." 13:22 RSV.
So it is from the perspective of a Christian. For him, Jesus is the true Christ.
For the record, I consider Jesus as a false Christ.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote:"False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect." 13:22 RSV.
So it is from the perspective of a Christian. For him, Jesus is the true Christ.
For the record, I consider Jesus as a false Christ.

On my list I put "false prophets" in quotation marks precisely so as not to prejudge the issue.

Bernard Muller wrote: For the record, I consider Jesus as a false Christ.

Do you care to elaborate? Do you think there is a true Christ?

to Ben,

I am not sure I understand the grammar here. Are you asking why I do not accept the possibility that false messiahs and prophets were affecting Mark's community? But I most certainly do accept that possibility. I never said I did not. I must have misread you this time. I thought you meant that some of Jesus' predictions about false prophets to come were designed (by Mark or somebody else who is not Jesus) to reassure Mark's readership in the face of such false prophets. If that is not what you meant, what did you mean?

I was saying about "Mark" planting in Jesus' words the warning about the appearances of these false Christs or false prophets in his city in conjunction with the fall of Jerusalem.
I strongly think these false Christs and false prophets existed in Mark's city when he was writing his gospel. Even if he put the "prediction" in Jesus' mouth, "Mark" was addressing a known fact witnessed by his community (with the possibility of some of its members joining these false Christs or false prophets (some may have just done it). Dominical prediction from Jesus is just a ruse. It is also misleading because "Mark" was not predicting it, but stated a present fact (through an alleged prophecy of Jesus).

I must have misread you this time. I thought you meant that some of Jesus' predictions about false prophets to come were designed (by Mark or somebody else who is not Jesus) to reassure Mark's readership in the face of such false prophets.

Yes, that's about it. Yes, the idea was: Jesus predicted it: so do not take these false Christs & prophets seriously. And do not leave our community to join them!
I think "Mark" is very clear on that:
"And then if any one says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it.
False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
But take heed; I have told you all things beforehand." (13:21-23 RSV)

Cordially, Bernard

Do you care to elaborate? Do you think there is a true Christ?

I think there is no true Christ anywhere, past, present and future. I am not religious at all and I don't have "idols" in any fields.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,

I am not sure I understand the grammar here. Are you asking why I do not accept the possibility that false messiahs and prophets were affecting Mark's community? But I most certainly do accept that possibility. I never said I did not. I must have misread you this time. I thought you meant that some of Jesus' predictions about false prophets to come were designed (by Mark or somebody else who is not Jesus) to reassure Mark's readership in the face of such false prophets. If that is not what you meant, what did you mean?

I was saying about "Mark" planting in Jesus' words the warning about the appearances of these false Christs or false prophets in his city in conjunction with the fall of Jerusalem.

That is what I said, just using different words. So I did not misread you at all. I put "inroads by 'false prophets' framed as dominical predictions" on my list: in other words, the activity by false prophets were portrayed as predictions from the lips of Jesus, exactly as you are saying. What were you objecting to??

I strongly think these false Christs and false prophets existed in Mark's city when he was writing his gospel. Even if he put the "prediction" in Jesus' mouth, "Mark" was addressing a known fact witnessed by his community (with the possibility of some of its members joining these false Christs or false prophets (some may have just done it).

Dominical prediction from Jesus is just a ruse.

I completely agree. That is why I said that the false prophets' activities were framed as dominical predictions. Their activities were not really predicted.

It is also misleading because "Mark" was not predicting it, but stated a present fact (through an alleged prophecy of Jesus).

Exactly.

Yes, that's about it. Yes, the idea was: Jesus predicted it: so do not take these false Christs & prophets seriously. And do not leave our community to join them!
I think "Mark" is very clear on that:
"And then if any one says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it.
False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
But take heed; I have told you all things beforehand." (13:21-23 RSV)

Yes. So what were you objecting to?

Ben.