Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Charles Wilson wrote:Ben-

I've stayed out of this one for awhile but now offer a suggestion - Linguistic Analysis.
We have Cross-Language puns, references and Jokes aplenty to look at.

"Fourth Watch": This is a Roman term. The Jewish Fighters had three Watches. Why include a Roman (also Greek?) term in a document about a Jewish Tableau?
"...Which, translated, means...": Someone feels obligated to point out that, for the Narration, a word given in one language means something to the Target Audience that needs to be explained.
"Gabbatha", f'rinstance. Does this tranliteration go in both directions or is it only from a Hebrew => Greek idea?
Various Latinisms.
Word Plays in one language that are lost when translated into Greek: Hebrew "Lamb" => "Arnion" loses a Word Play on "Immar-Immer"
Idioms: "You must be born again". It is plain that Nicodemus does not understand the idiom and he is a "Ruler of the Jews". Who then, could Nicodemus be?

These ideas lead to the idea that the "Originals" were used as Sources for another intention and that "From the fact that the Jesus stories were written from another source, it does not follow that the Source was about a "Jesus".

I like it! Yes, there are verses or clauses whose sole source is the explanation, development, or exploitation of linguistic data. Perhaps even some entire pericopae were inspired by some linguistic resemblance or pun. Good call. I have added a category.

Thank you, Ben.

1. To understand the Mind Set here, look at these 3 passages:

The First Watch:

Lamentations 2: 19 (RSV):

[19] Arise, cry out in the night, at the beginning of the watches!
Pour out your heart like water before the presence of the Lord!
Lift your hands to him for the lives of your children,
who faint for hunger at the head of every street.

The Second Watch:

Judges 7: 19 (Moffatt):

[19] So, when Gideon and his hundred men reached the outskirts of the camp at the beginning of the middle watch, just when the guard had been posted, they blew their trumpets and smashed the pitchers in their hands.

The Third Watch:

Exodus 14: 24 (RSV):

[24] And in the morning watch the LORD in the pillar of fire and of cloud looked down upon the host of the Egyptians, and discomfited the host of the Egyptians...

Now, compare with Mark 6: 48 (RSV):

[48] And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them...

It is certainly possible that the "Fourth Watch" had been implemented by the Jewish Soldiers "at this time" - "At this time..." being, for me, 4 BCE, "in the 30s" for most of you and "around 110" for the "Members of the Club" who wrote this.

The point, however, is that the Language is Roman, if not Greek. It is not Hebrew. It is when the Cock Crows with all that entails. It is not given as, "Sometime in the middle to late Third Watch...". As I have asked before, "What is a Military Term doing in the middle of a Miracle Story?" What is a "Cuirass", a seamless garment that prevents a sword from piercing the body, doing in the middle of the Crucifixion Motif in John?

Thank you, Ben for adding this idea. The Story tells us one thing. The Language may be telling us something else.

CW.

Ben C. Smith wrote:

outhouse wrote:Then I would just add

John the Baptist.

John the Baptist does not fit as a completely separate item on the list, but I have added him as a possible example for the new category "Jewish traditions emanating from contemporary or near contemporary religious figures".

Fair enough.

outhouse wrote: John the Baptist does not fit as a completely separate item on the list, but I have added him as a possible example for the new category "Jewish traditions emanating from contemporary or near contemporary religious figures".

John the Baptist may not have been Jewish.

MrMacSon wrote:

outhouse wrote: John the Baptist does not fit as a completely separate item on the list, but I have added him as a possible example for the new category "Jewish traditions emanating from contemporary or near contemporary religious figures".

John the Baptist may not have been Jewish.

Says who?

to Ben,

Linguistic puns, transliterations, translations, or idioms (translations from Aramaic to Greek or from Greek to Latin).

Did you mean Latin to Greek instead of Greek to Latin?

Cordially, Bernard

Did I say it that way?
Dyslexia is a terribus whank.

Oops!

Thnx,
Chalres

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,

Linguistic puns, transliterations, translations, or idioms (translations from Aramaic to Greek or from Greek to Latin).

Did you mean Latin to Greek instead of Greek to Latin?

No, I meant Greek to Latin. We went over some of that. Lepton is a Greek word (λεπτός). Quadrans is a Latin word (of which κοδράντης is the Greek transliteration, not translation). The same thing happens when αὐλή (a Greek word) is translated as πραιτώριον (= praetorium). It is like speaking in English about dumplings and then remarking that in German they are called Knoedel. I am translating "dumplings" into German (Knödel), even though I am doing it in English.