Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

And I think that this:

We must know, then, that if Paul is' young in respect to time -- having flourished immediately after the Lord's ascension -- yet his writings depend on the Old Testament

assumes Paul's conversion and his writing as a 'fully bloomed' Christian writer.

More importantly νεάζει implies Paul was a 'youth' at his conversion. Assuming Clement assigned the ascension to around 30 CE this would fit the usual dating for Paul.

Some other considerations. Paul in Philemon is described as 'aged' (πρεσβύτης) at the time of writing. νεανίου in Acts 7:58 is implausible with a gap between Philemon and Acts 7:58 of about 25 years. What's the most plausible explanation for this?

Secret Alias wrote:Some other considerations. Paul in Philemon is described as 'aged' (πρεσβύτης) at the time of writing. νεανίου in Acts 7:58 is implausible with a gap between Philemon and Acts 7:58 of about 25 years. What's the most plausible explanation for this?

Paul in Philemon is an old man. Ph dates early 60's


The dependency of Acts of Pauls own text is still debated heavily, which many arguments would hinge upon.


But it is obvious the authors of Acts View the stoning of Stephan close to the ascension, which writing say 60 ish years later 5 years would be considered very close when Paul was much younger.

Right but you can't a youth in 36 and an old man in 60. That's the problem.

The question of the dating of Paul's activities have little in the way of supporting evidence outside of the documents of the Church

outhouse wrote: Regardless, they have historicity as being from the 50's, and two late second century traditions, "if" your you're correct have no chance of competing against the original Pauline text.

outhouse uses amphiboly to assert the Paul texts "have historicity as being from the '50s" - Yes there is a tradition of belief they are from the '50s, but nothing really substantiates that they really are.

Determining hat happened in second century century, especially determining the relationships of second century texts to each other, may be our best hope of finding out whether these texts existed in the first century.

Another bit of corroborating evidence when coupled with the statement in Clement from the opening of Book Five Tertullian Against Marcion:

There is nothing without a beginning but God alone. Now, inasmuch as the beginning: occupies the first place in the condition of all things, so it must necessarily take precedence in the treatment of them, if a clear knowledge is to be arrived at concerning their condition; for you could not find the means of examining even the quality of anything, unless you were certain of its existence, and that after discovering its origin. Since therefore I am brought, in the course of my little work, to this point, I require to know of Marcion the origin of his apostles even--I, who am to some degree a new disciple? the follower of no other master; who at the same time can believe nothing, except that nothing ought to be believed hastily (and that I may further say is hastily believed, which is believed without any examination of its beginning); in short, I who have the best reason possible for bringing this inquiry to a most careful solution, since a man is affirmed to me to be an apostle whom I do not find mentioned in the Gospel in the catalogue, of the apostles. Indeed, when I hear that this man was chosen by the Lord after He had attained His rest in heaven, I feel that a kind of improvidence is imputable to Christ, for not knowing before that this man was necessary to Him; and because He thought that he must be added to the apostolic body in the way of a fortuitous encounter rather than a deliberate selection; by necessity (so to speak), and not voluntary choice, although the members of the apostolate had been duly ordained, and were now dismissed to their several missions.

I never noticed this sentence before:

Indeed, when I hear that this man was chosen by the Lord after He had attained His rest in heaven, I feel that a kind of improvidence is imputable to Christ, for not knowing before that this man was necessary to Him

Denique audiens postea eum a domino allectum, iam in caelis quiescente, quasi inprovidentiam existimo si non ante scivit illum sibi necessarium Christus

On its own it doesn't have the emphasis in Clement's statement - i.e. 'straightaway' or 'immediately' - but the clear sense I think is that Tertullian or the original author is responding to what must have been the Marcionite understanding of an immediate call to Paul after Jesus's heavenly ascension or possibly as or at (or 'with') the heavenly ascension. Very interesting discovery.

Actually maybe the Latin iam is closer to εὐθὺς than I know:

jam , adv. for diam, collat. form of diem, cf. pri-dem, du-dum, Corss. Ausspr. I. p. 213; II. p. 850; but acc. to Georg Curtius Gr. Etym. 398, 620; locat. form from pronom. stem ja.
I. [select] Of time, denoting a point or moment of time as coinciding with that of the action, etc., described.
A. [select] Of present time.
1. [select] As opp. to past or future, at this time, now, just now, at present, i. e. while I speak or write this.
a. [select] Jam alone: “jamne autem, ut soles, deludis?” Plaut. Aul. 5, 11: “jam satis credis sobrium esse me,” Ter. Eun. 4, 4, 36: “saltus reficit jam roscida luna,” Verg. G. 3, 337: “jam tenebris et sole cadente,” id. ib. 3, 401: “jamque dies, ni fallor, adest,” id. A. 5, 49: “jam advesperascit,” Ter. And. 3, 4, 2: “reddere qui voces jam scit puer,” Hor. A. P. 158: stabat modo consularis, modo septemvir epulonum; “jam neutrum,” Plin. Ep. 2, 11, 12: “jam melior, jam, diva, precor,” Verg. A. 12, 179: “Hem, scio jam quod vis dicere,” Plaut. Mil. 1, 1, 36: “in ea (consuetudine) quaedam sunt jura ipsa jam certa propter vetustatem,” Cic. Inv. 2, 22, 67: “jam tempus agi,” Verg. A. 5, 638: “surgere jam tempus,” Cat. 62, 3.—
b. [select] Strengthened.
(α). [select] By repetition: jam jam, jam jamque (nearly = nunc), at this very time, precisely now: “jam jam intellego, Crasse, quod dicas,” Cic. de Or. 3, 24, 90: “jam jam minime miror te otium perturbare,” id. Phil. 2, 34, 87: “jam jam dolet quod egi, jam jamque paenitet,” Cat. 63, 73: “jam jam linquo acies,” Verg. A. 12, 875: “jam jamque video bellum,” Cic. Att. 16, 9 fin.: “at illum ruere nuntiant et jam jamque adesse,” id. ib. 7, 20, 1; cf.: “jam mihi, jam possim contentus vivere parvo,” Tib. 1, 1, 25 (7).—
(β). [select] By nunc: jam nunc, just now, at this very time, as things now are: “jam nunc irata non es,” Plaut. Am. 3, 2, 65: “dux, jam nunc locatus in urbe,” Liv. 22, 38, 9; Hor. Ep. 2, 1, 127: “quae cum cogito, jam nunc timeo quidnam, etc.,” Cic. Div. in Caecil. 13, 42: “deliberationis ejus tempus ita jam nunc statui posse, etc.,” Liv. 31, 32, 3: “ipsa Venus laetos jam nunc migravit in agros,” Tib. 2, 3, 3: “nec jam nunc regina loquor,” Val. Fl. 8, 47; so, “nunc jam (nunciam): secede huc nunciam,” Plaut. Capt. 2, 1, 23: “audi nunciam,” Ter. And. 2, 1, 29: “i nunciam,” id. Ad. 2, 1, 21: nunc jam sum expeditus, Cass. ap. Cic. Fam. 12, 12, 5: “nunc jam nobis vobisque consulatus patet,” Liv. 7, 32, 14.—
(γ). [select] By tum: “jam tum opifices funguntur munere,” Plin. 11, 21, 24, § 74; Verg. G. 2, 405; id. A. 1, 18.—
(δ). [select] By pridem, v. jampridem.—
2. [select] In contrast with the time at which something was expected.
a. [select] Of that which occurs sooner, already, so soon: “quies (animos) aut jam exhaustos aut mox exhauriendos, renovavit,” Liv. 21, 21, 7: “gravitate valetudinis, qua tamen jam paululum videor levari,” Cic. Fam. 6, 2, 1; 3, 8, 16: “jamne ibis,” are you going so soon, Plaut. Men. 2, 3, 86; id. Rud. 2, 7, 26.—
b. [select] Of that which occurs later, at last, now, only now: “ohe jam desine deos uxor gratulando obtundere,” Ter. Heaut. 5, 1, 8: “postulo, Dave, ut redeat jam in viam,” id. And. 1, 2, 19: “jamque sero diei subducit ex acie legionem faciendis castris,” Tac. A. 2, 21: “jam sanguinis alti vis sibi fecit iter,” Luc. 2, 214.—Tandem or aliquando is often added: “jam tandem ades ilico,” Plaut. Mil. 4, 2, 39: “putamus enim utile esse te aliquando jam rem transigere,” Cic. Att. 1, 4, 1: “jam tandem Italiae fugientis prendimus oras,” Verg. A. 6, 61; Liv. 22, 12, 10.—
3. [select] As continued from the past, already, by this time, ere now, till now, hitherto: “et apud Graecos quidem jam anni prope quadrigenti sunt, etc.,” Cic. Or. 51, 171: “obsolevit jam ista oratio,” id. de Imp. Pomp. 17, 52: “nondum feminam aequavimus gloriā, et jam nos laudis satietas cepit?” Curt. 9, 6, 23.—With numerals and words specifying time: “jam biennium est, cum mecum coepit rem gerere,” Plaut. Merc. 3, 1, 35; so, “plus jam anno,” id. Curc. 1, 1, 14: “sunt duo menses jam,” Cic. Rosc. Com. 3, 8: “qui septingentos jam annos vivunt, etc.,” id. Fl. 26, 63: “annum jam tertium et vicesimum regnat,” id. de Imp. Pomp. 3, 7; id. Fin. 2, 29, 94.—
4. [select] With imperatives, to express haste or impatience, like Engl. now, now, straightway, at once: “quid miserum, Aenea, laceras? Jam parce sepulto,” Verg. A. 3, 41: “sed jam age, carpe viam,” id. ib. 6, 629: “et jam tu ... illum adspice contra,” id. ib. 11, 373.—So in impetuous or passionate questions (freq. in Plaut.): “Jam tu autem nobis praeturam geris?” Plaut. Ep. 1, 1, 23; cf. id. Aul. 5, 11; id. Bacch. 2, 2, 25.—
5. [select] Jam ... jam, at one time ... at another, now ... now, at this time ... at that: “jamque eadem digitis jam pectine pulsat eburno,” Verg. A. 647: “jamque hos cursu, jam praeterit illos,” id. ib. 4, 157: “qui jam contento, jam laxo fune laborat,” Hor. S. 2, 7, 20: “jam vino quaerens, jam somno fallere curas,” id. ib. 2, 7, 114: “jam secundae, jam adversae res, ita erudierant, etc.,” Liv. 30, 30; Tib. 1, 2, 49; Ov. M. 1, 111.—
B. [select] Of past time.
1. [select] In the time just past, but now, a moment ago, a little while ago, just: “videamus nunc quam sint praeclare illa his, quae jam posui, consequentia,” Cic. Fin. 3, 7, 26: “Arsinoë et jam dicta Memphis,” Plin. 5, 9, 11, § 61: “insulae praeter jam dictas,” id. 3, 26, 30, § 151: “hiems jam praecipitaverat,” Caes. B. C. 3, 25, 1: “domum quam tu jam exaedificatam habebas,” Cic. Att. 1, 6, 1.—
2. [select] Like English now, by this time, already.
a. [select] Alone: “jam advesperascebat,” Liv. 39, 50: “Hannibalem movisse ex hibernis, et jam Alpes transire,” id. 27, 39: “et jam fama volans ... domos et moenia complet,” Verg. A. 11, 139; 12, 582; Caes. B. G. 1, 11; 6, 6: “jamque rubescebat Aurora,” Verg. A. 3, 521; 10, 260: “ut semel inclinavit pugna, jam intolerabilis Romana vis erat,” Liv. 6, 32: “cum decimum jam diem graviter ex intestinis laborarem,” Cic. Fam. 7, 26, 1.—
b. [select] Strengthened.
(α). [select] Jam jamque, Verg. A. 8, 708.—
(β). [select] By tum, as early as that: “se jam tum gessisse pro cive,” Cic. Arch. 5, 11; Liv. 29, 1; Verg. 7, 738; Tac. Agr. 45.—
(γ). [select] By tunc (post-Aug.; “once in Cic.),” Suet. Aug. 89; id. Ner. 7; Tac. H. 4, 50; Cic. Fam. 3, 12, 3 dub.—
3. [select] Of a time succeeding another time referred to, from that time, thenceforth, thereafter (esp. with a or ab, when it is often = Eng. even, very): “qui aequom esse censent nos jam a pueris nasci senes,” Ter. Heaut. 2, 1, 2: “quae me maxime sicuti jam a prima adolescentia delectarunt,” Cic. Fam. 1, 9, 67: “benevolentia quae mihi jam a pueritia tua cognita est,” id. ib. 4, 7, 1: “dederas enim jam ab adolescentia documenta,” id. Mil. 8, 22: jam ab illo tempore, cum, etc., from the very time when, etc., id. Fam. 2, 16, 9; cf.: “urgerent philosophorum greges jam ab illo fonte et capite Socrate,” id. de Or. 1, 10, 42. —So with ex: “jam ex quo ipse accepisset regnum,” ever since, Liv. 42, 11, 8.—
C. [select] Of future time.
1. [select] In the time immediately approaching, forthwith, straightway, directly, presently: “occlude sis fores ambobus pessulis: jam ego hic ero,” Plaut. Aul. 1, 2, 25: “ille jam hic aderit,” id. Ep. 2, 2, 72: omitte; “jam adero,” Ter. Eun. 4, 6, 26; cf. id. ib. 4, 6, 1; id. And. 1, 2, 9; 4, 4, 38: bono animo es; “jam argentum ad eam deferes, quod ei es pollicitus,” id. Heaut. 4, 6, 18: “facere id ut paratum jam sit,” Plaut. As. 1, 1, 76: “jam fuerit, neque post unquam revocare licebit,” Lucr. 3, 927: “jam faciam quod voltis,” Hor. S. 1, 1, 16: “jam enim aderunt consules ad suas Nonas,” Cic. Att. 7, 20, 2.—
2. [select] In the time immediately succeeding another time referred to, forthwith, at once, straightway, then: “nunc ubi me illic non videbit, jam huc recurret,” Ter. Ad. 4, 1, 10: “accede ad ignem ... jam calesces,” id. Eun. 1, 2, 5: “nisi puerum tollis, jam ego hunc in mediam viam provolvam,” id. And. 4, 4, 38: “de quibus jam dicendi locus erit, cum de senioribus pauca dixero,” Cic. Brut. 25, 96: “agedum, dictatorem creemus. Jam hic centicescet furor,” Liv. 2, 29, 11: “aperi, inquit, jam scies,” Petr. 16, 2; cf. Verg. A. 1, 272.—
3. [select] Representing as present an impending event, now, already, presently (mostly poet.): “jam te premet nox,” Hor. C. 1, 4, 16: “jam veniet mors, jam subrepet iners aetas,” Tib. 1, 1, 70: “jam mare turbari trabibus videbis, jam fervere litora flammis,” Verg. A. 4, 566; 6, 676: “alius Latio jam partus Achilles,” id. ib. 6, 89: “hic magnae jam locus urbis erit,” Tib. 2, 5, 55.—
D. [select] With negatives, denoting cessation of previous condition: jam non, no more, no longer: “quem odisse jam non potestis,” Cic. Clu. 10, 29; Ov. M. 4, 382: “non jam,” not any more, Cic. Div. in Caecil. 1, 3: “nihil jam,” Caes. B. G. 2, 21.—
E. [select] With comparatives: “ad mitiora jam ingenia,” which had become milder, Liv. 27. 39: “ad ferociores jam gentes,” which then were less civilized, id. 21, 60: “una jam potior sententia,” Stat. Th. 2, 368.

It should be noted that the Vulgate often translates εὐθὺς with statim.

Secret Alias wrote: I never noticed this sentence before:

Indeed, when I hear that this man was chosen by the Lord after He had attained His rest in heaven, I feel that a kind of improvidence is imputable to Christ, for not knowing before that this man was necessary to Him

Denique audiens postea eum a domino allectum, iam in caelis quiescente, quasi inprovidentiam existimo si non ante scivit illum sibi necessarium Christus

On its own it doesn't have the emphasis in Clement's statement - i.e. 'straightaway' or 'immediately' - but the clear sense I think is that Tertullian or the original author is responding to what must have been the Marcionite understanding of an immediate call to Paul after Jesus's heavenly ascension or possibly as or at (or 'with') the heavenly ascension. Very interesting discovery.

Are you saying it is referring to Paul?

I think this part of the passage is interesting -

I feel that a kind of improvidence is imputable to Christ, for not knowing before that this man was necessary to Him; and because He thought that he must be added to the apostolic body in the way of a fortuitous encounter rather than a deliberate selection