Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Secret Alias wrote:

Again do you deny Paul was a teacher to gentiles in the 50's who was part of a community effort

Do you deny there were alternative understandings in antiquity for (a) who Paul was (his name/where he came from) (b) to whom he addressed his teachings (i.e. groups other than the Gentiles) (c) when he was active (how early or late) or (d) whether or not he was a member of the greater Church as Acts describes? Or do you think all groups agreed with the Catholic understanding from the very beginning?

I actually do pretty well with Paul

That's why it bothers me when someone perverts the historicity here with mental hurdles they created themselves.


So I take that as YOU DENY


That's fine. But it holds no credibility what so ever. [and yes I already understand credibility means nothing to you]

It was quite usual for the Jews of that time to have two names, one Hebrew, the other Latin or Greek

Where do you get evidence from Acts that 'Paul' was Saul's birth name?

Secret Alias wrote:So you dispute the idea that the Pseudo-Clementines portrait of Simon Magus was written as a criticism of Paul?

Paul had plenty of criticism.


The date of such makes this non sequitur.

So you agree that the Pseudo-Clementines identified Paul with the name 'Simon' and made him the enemy of Peter until his death?

outhouse wrote:Maybe you do not understand Paul has historicity for a reason.

I have to admit, outhouse, that you do tend to speak of historicity as if it were an award conferred by some officiating body, of which the recipient shall never be divested.

So I take that as YOU DENY ... Paul was a teacher to gentiles in the 50's who was part of a community effort

Do you deny that every part of that formula you just laid out had ancient dissenters from the time it was put forward in the late second century?

Good one, Ben.

Ben C. Smith wrote:

outhouse wrote:Maybe you do not understand Paul has historicity for a reason.

I have to admit, outhouse, that you do tend to speak of historicity as if it were an award conferred by some officiating body, of which the recipient shall never be divested.

Love it.



Regardless, does Paul or does not Paul have complete historicity as being a Teacher whos communities in the 50's wrote the text we have today?


Yes he does.


Now what is up for debate are the details of such, and educated people at the highest levels can build different Pauls, based on how one personally contextualizes the evidence.

Secret Alias wrote:

So I take that as YOU DENY ... Paul was a teacher to gentiles in the 50's who was part of a community effort

Do you deny that every part of that formula you just laid out had ancient dissenters from the time it was put forward in the late second century?

What about those in the first century who made comments on him.


Now you claim it was a conspiracy to build a fictional character for some unknown reason and they then fabricated 1 Clement, for their apologetic reasons.



The only reason your making this attack, is because of your based conclusions force you to tear down his historicity. Which you have failed.

does Paul or does not Paul have complete historicity as being a Teacher whos communities in the 50's wrote the text we have today?

The dating is based on the clues that are embedded in a particular recension of the Pauline writings amplified by Acts. A community which rejected Acts or did not know of its existence and had a shorter different recension of the Pauline epistles might have had an earlier or later date for the activities of the apostle. If you are asking me whether or not I think Paul was active c 50 CE I'd say sure that's very likely. But if you follow that up with the question of whether other communities might have had an earlier or later dating for the beginning or end of his activities I'd have to say yes there is evidence to support at least the former.

If your typically wretched sentence formation is asking me to endorse the current set of Pauline writings as the original set established by the apostle - no I can't do that.