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Re: How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:43 pm
by MrMacSon
outhouse wrote: Do you deny that Paul was a Hellenistic teacher in the Diaspora of what would become Christianity in the 40's and 50's and wrote in part the 7 attributed text[s]?
Yes, Paul was caught up in the Diaspora, & maybe a reaction to it. But the Diaspora is a post Jewish War thing, so I thnk Paul would have been active in the late 1st century AD/CE or the early 2nd century
outhouse wrote: Who wanted nothing more then to be viewed as a real apostle to Christ with all the authority as those who were attributed to what they thought were the real Jewish apostles?
Well, that is how he mostly portrayed in the canonical texts (probably as a result of editing/redaction)
outhouse wrote: Maybe you could explain the Pauline evidence with credibility as I already have?
"YOUR problem [outhouse] is you don't have a credible foundation to start from here."

Re: How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:44 pm
by outhouse
Ben C. Smith wrote:
outhouse wrote:To support a mythical Paul is to claim anachronisms in the letters, do you ignore this?
Can you give an example of what you mean?
Carrier does a better job, it is where I plagiarized it.

Is Paul the Persecutor an Anachronism?

Another argument attempted to support a mythical Paul is to claim anachronisms in the letters, such as that Paul couldn’t have been allowed under the Roman Empire to prosecute Christians as the letters claim Paul had done. But that is not an anachronism. Until the 60s A.D., by imperial decree the Jews were allowed their own laws (in fact even Romans had to obey some of them in Judea; otherwise, only Jews were subject to them). This was because they allied themselves with the winning side in the civil war (supporting Julius Caesar and then Augustus, in the 50s to 30s B.C.). That was only no longer the case after the Jewish War (66-70 A.D.). I discuss this in some detail, with references, in my chapter on burial law in The Empty Tomb.

There is some dispute whether this agreement was already being altered before the war. For example, the Talmud and the Gospel of John both claim the Jews had lost the right to execute without Roman permission 40 years before the war, but that number, coming only from the Talmud, is suspiciously theological, and the evidence of Jewish trials and executions in the 30s and 40s is more than extensive enough to disprove such a legend; although they may have gotten the date wrong (or Roman permission may have been so easy to get it never even got mentioned). Crucially, Josephus, far closer to the events and the data than the compilers of the Talmud, makes no mention of this development, which is a significant strike against it. He may have been inclined to conceal this. But it doesn’t look so. Even his story of Ananus getting into trouble for executing James refers only to his assembling the court without imperial permission, and it’s unclear which step in that process was a violation, e.g. Josephus may mean that Ananus had not yet received the endorsement of the Roman authorities to be high priest or chair of the Sanhedrin, and in any event the implication is that a court assembled with imperial permission would be, even then, authorized in issuing death sentences.

But that only relates to death sentences, not other sanctions. And Paul does not say he executed anyone. Roman law certainly once allowed Jewish authorities to arrest, try, and execute blasphemers, and limits on specifically executing them were either merely procedural or would have simply defaulted such trials to meeting out lesser sentences. Roman citizens would have been exempt, of course, and also citizens of other non-Jewish polities, and probably any Gentiles (except in certain cases, such as defiling sacred objects). For instance, a Gentile could probably appeal to any court (maybe even a Jewish court) with the defense that they are not even a Jew.

Moreover, Paul actually implies his base of operations was Damascus (Gal. 1:17; 2 Cor. 11:32), which was not always part of the Roman Empire. Paul is otherwise vague as to where he persecuted (he was never in Judea when he was a persecutor, according to Gal. 1:22). Citizens of Damascus may have had the power to appeal to the Damascene authorities and Damascene law to exempt themselves from Jewish arrest warrants, although (a) Jewish inhabitants, like many others, in Damascus, did not necessarily have Damascene citizenship (you did not have it merely by living there), and so would be subject to Jewish law unless the Damascenes banned that and there is no evidence they did; and (b) any Jew who used that tactic to escape would likely be shunned as an apostate, betraying Jewish law, and could no longer associate with fellow Jews—unless their fellows agreed the warrant was unjust. So in Damascus what Paul could or couldn’t do would be a complex political question, and not a cut-and-dried matter of law. Paul implies he was hunted by the Damascene authorities once he converted, which suggests the Damascenes were actually endorsing the enforcement of Jewish law there (against, as they would see it, troublemaking Jews), and thus annoyed when Paul switched sides. The Romans, meanwhile, wouldn’t care, as long as Roman citizens weren’t being arrested, and the Jewish court didn’t overstep its bounds.

So, in general, in this case and others, I find nothing in Paul’s letters to be anachronistic. It is either too vague to be claimed such. Or it is perfectly consistent with the conditions of the 50s A.D.

Re: How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:45 pm
by outhouse
MrMacSon wrote:
outhouse wrote: Do you deny that Paul was a Hellenistic teacher in the Diaspora of what would become Christianity in the 40's and 50's and wrote in part the 7 attributed text[s]?
Yes, Paul was caught up in the Diaspora, & maybe a reaction to it. But the Diaspora is a post Jewish War thing, so I thnk Paul would have been active in the late 1st century AD/CE or the early 2nd century
outhouse wrote: Who wanted nothing more then to be viewed as a real apostle to Christ with all the authority as those who were attributed to what they thought were the real Jewish apostles?
Well, that is how he mostly portrayed in the canonical texts (probably as a result of editing/redaction)
outhouse wrote: Maybe you could explain the Pauline evidence with credibility as I already have?
"YOUR problem [outhouse] is you don't have a credible foundation to start from here."
I'm sorry I follow academia you fight tooth and nail.

Re: How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:46 pm
by outhouse
Secret Alias wrote:
No motive existed then to invent that name.
Another annoyingly cretinous statement.

Take it up with Carrier.

You were baited and the line is now running

Re: How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:49 pm
by MrMacSon
Secret Alias wrote:
does Paul or does not Paul have complete historicity as being a Teacher whos communities in the 50's wrote the text we have today?
The dating is based on the clues that are embedded in a particular recension of the Pauline writings amplified by Acts. A community which rejected Acts, or did not know of its existence, and had a shorter different recension of the Pauline epistles, might have had an earlier or later date for the activities of the apostle. If you are asking me whether or not I think Paul was active c 50 CE I'd say sure that's very likely. But if you follow that up with the question of whether other communities might have had an earlier or later dating for the beginning or end of his activities I'd have to say yes there is evidence to support at least the former.
Well said, though I reckon 'Paul' could as well be later

Re: How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:56 pm
by Ben C. Smith
outhouse wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
outhouse wrote:To support a mythical Paul is to claim anachronisms in the letters, do you ignore this?
Can you give an example of what you mean?
Carrier does a better job, it is where I plagiarized it.

Is Paul the Persecutor an Anachronism?

Another argument attempted to support a mythical Paul is to claim anachronisms in the letters....
Ah, I see what you mean now. Anachronisms are, naturally, a pretty common way of identifying forgeries. But the reverse is not true; that is, not all forgeries will be guilty of anachronism. So no: to support a mythical Paul is not necessarily to claim anachronisms. They were not, for example, the basis of my recent "Simon Magus equals Paul" flash.
In short it simple states Paul to have been a teacher of the new movement, written in the 50's, has a high degree of plausibility and probably existed. With more evidence in support then many characters from this time period.
Well, I am in agreement with that; it is just that this is not exactly what it sounds like you are saying when you speak of "having complete historicity". I craved clarification.
I stated earlier further study in his historicity is not out of the question, but his [stephens] conclusions remain unsubstantiated.
I agree it is certainly possible both for a figure's historicity to be subject to doubt and for certain particular reconstructions involving that figure's nonhistoricity to be implausible on their own merits.

Ben.

Re: How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:59 pm
by MrMacSon
outhouse wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
outhouse wrote:To support a mythical Paul is to claim anachronisms in the letters, do you ignore this?
Can you give an example of what you mean?
Carrier does a better job, it is where I plagiarized it.

Is Paul the Persecutor an Anachronism?

Another argument attempted to support a mythical Paul is to claim anachronisms in the letters, such as that Paul couldn’t have been allowed under the Roman Empire to prosecute Christians as the letters claim Paul had done. But that is not an anachronism. Until the 60s A.D., by imperial decree the Jews were allowed their own laws (in fact even Romans had to obey some of them in Judea; otherwise, only Jews were subject to them). This was because they allied themselves with the winning side in the civil war (supporting Julius Caesar and then Augustus, in the 50s to 30s B.C.). That was only no longer the case after the Jewish War (66-70 A.D.). I discuss this in some detail, with references, in my chapter on burial law in The Empty Tomb.

There is some dispute whether this agreement was already being altered before the war. For example, the Talmud and the Gospel of John both claim the Jews had lost the right to execute without Roman permission 40 years before the war, but that number, coming only from the Talmud, is suspiciously theological, and the evidence of Jewish trials and executions in the 30s and 40s is more than extensive enough to disprove such a legend; although they may have gotten the date wrong (or Roman permission may have been so easy to get it never even got mentioned). Crucially, Josephus, far closer to the events and the data than the compilers of the Talmud, makes no mention of this development, which is a significant strike against it. He may have been inclined to conceal this. But it doesn’t look so. Even his story of Ananus getting into trouble for executing James refers only to his assembling the court without imperial permission, and it’s unclear which step in that process was a violation, e.g. Josephus may mean that Ananus had not yet received the endorsement of the Roman authorities to be high priest or chair of the Sanhedrin, and in any event the implication is that a court assembled with imperial permission would be, even then, authorized in issuing death sentences.

But that only relates to death sentences, not other sanctions. And Paul does not say he executed anyone. Roman law certainly once allowed Jewish authorities to arrest, try, and execute blasphemers, and limits on specifically executing them were either merely procedural or would have simply defaulted such trials to meeting out lesser sentences. Roman citizens would have been exempt, of course, and also citizens of other non-Jewish polities, and probably any Gentiles (except in certain cases, such as defiling sacred objects). For instance, a Gentile could probably appeal to any court (maybe even a Jewish court) with the defense that they are not even a Jew.

Moreover, Paul actually implies his base of operations was Damascus (Gal. 1:17; 2 Cor. 11:32), which was not always part of the Roman Empire. Paul is otherwise vague as to where he persecuted (he was never in Judea when he was a persecutor, according to Gal. 1:22). Citizens of Damascus may have had the power to appeal to the Damascene authorities and Damascene law to exempt themselves from Jewish arrest warrants, although (a) Jewish inhabitants, like many others, in Damascus, did not necessarily have Damascene citizenship (you did not have it merely by living there), and so would be subject to Jewish law unless the Damascenes banned that and there is no evidence they did; and (b) any Jew who used that tactic to escape would likely be shunned as an apostate, betraying Jewish law, and could no longer associate with fellow Jews—unless their fellows agreed the warrant was unjust. So in Damascus what Paul could or couldn’t do would be a complex political question, and not a cut-and-dried matter of law. Paul implies he was hunted by the Damascene authorities once he converted, which suggests the Damascenes were actually endorsing the enforcement of Jewish law there (against, as they would see it, troublemaking Jews), and thus annoyed when Paul switched sides. The Romans, meanwhile, wouldn’t care, as long as Roman citizens weren’t being arrested, and the Jewish court didn’t overstep its bounds.

So, in general, in this case and others, I find nothing in Paul’s letters to be anachronistic. It is either too vague to be claimed such. Or it is perfectly consistent with the conditions of the 50s A.D.
Is that Carrier's? If, so, it would be appropriate to reference where it is from.


This is interesting -
the Talmud and the Gospel of John both claim the Jews had lost the right to execute without Roman permission 40 years before the war, but that number, coming only from the Talmud, is suspiciously theological, and the evidence of Jewish trials and executions in the 30s and 40s is more than extensive enough to disprove such a legend
I wonder what information/source/s backs that up.

Even his story of Ananus getting into trouble for executing James refers only to his assembling the court without imperial permission
That was set in ~62 AD/CE (edited from 68)


This is interesting -
Moreover, Paul actually implies his base of operations was Damascus (Gal. 1:17; 2 Cor. 11:32), which was not always part of the Roman Empire. Paul is otherwise vague as to where he persecuted (he was never in Judea when he was a persecutor, according to Gal. 1:22) ... So in Damascus what Paul could or couldn’t do would be a complex political question, and not a cut-and-dried matter of law. Paul implies he was hunted by the Damascene authorities once he converted, which suggests the Damascenes were actually endorsing the enforcement of Jewish law there (against, as they would see it, troublemaking Jews), and thus annoyed when Paul switched sides.
I presume it refers to Paul's pre-evanglizing life.

Re: How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:02 pm
by MrMacSon
Ben C. Smith wrote: ..Anachronisms are, naturally, a pretty common way of identifying forgeries. But the reverse is not true; that is, not all forgeries will be guilty of anachronism ..to support a mythical Paul is not necessarily to claim anachronisms.
Good point.

Re: How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:35 am
by Ulan
outhouse wrote:
Ulan wrote:The use of the word "truth" is usually a telltale sign of someone who has pretty much made up his mind, and the little brother of "truth" is "faith". And you put pretty much of the latter in the former.
Do you deny that Paul was a Hellenistic teacher in the Diaspora of what would become Christianity in the 40's and 50's and wrote in part the 7 attributed text ????????

Who wanted nothing more then to be viewed as a real apostle to Christ with all the authority as those who were attributed to what they thought were the real Jewish apostles????
I have no idea what anything you say here has to do with the things I wrote. Do you actually read what you reply to before you hit the "Submit" button?
outhouse wrote:YOUR problem is you don't have a credible foundation to start from here. Maybe you could explain the Pauline evidence with credibility as I already have?
You don't explain. You sometimes vaguely paraphrase ideas from other people. As such, there's not substance to evaluate your credibility, if I ever wanted to do that. For whatever purpose.

What I denied is the credibility of the "half a million witnesses" idea. You don't need to be an expert to evaluate that, as this is a a simple logic issue. Plus, it doesn't have anything to do with Paul anyway.

Re: How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:45 am
by Ulan
outhouse wrote:
Ulan wrote: Who decided that this is not up for debate? We have Paul's writings, and that is it. .
So much evidence in this communities work.
What community? Also, what does that have to do with the question about Galilee? Nothing, as usual. One of your endless non sequiturs. The only thing this quote of yours should tell you is that you could have saved yourself the ramblings of your preceding post, as the answer to your questions is in your quote of mine here.
outhouse wrote:Maybe you do not understand Paul has historicity for a reason.
Again, this statement has nothing to do with what I wrote.
outhouse wrote:NO ONE has ever given a replacement hypothesis with any credibility that explains Pauline evidence, that is even partially reasonable over his current well established historicity.
And another one that has no relevance to what I discussed. Or you have a very weird idea of what "historicity" means. "Historicity" doesn't mean we have to accept everything Acts tells us as fact. That would be a very foolish thing to do.

You have a weird fascination with an "all or nothing" approach. Instead of the aspects I addressed, like your insistence on a tradition of a crucified Galilean from before the fall of the temple, you question whether I "doubt" Paul existed as a result. Where is the connection here? What exactly did Paul tell us about that Galilean preacher that asking a question with regard to a Galilean results in the accusation of denying Paul's existence? What kind of thought process leads you there? This would only make sense if you equated Paul with the crucified Galilean (which is, funny enough, quite close to Stephan's suggestion), which doesn't exactly sound like an "outhouse" idea, which leaves me with the impression you don't really follow the discussion.