How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

[MrMacSon]

... Paul eventually "came around to his senses" and modified his original rejection of the leaders of the Church.

or the texts reflect redaction to show such modification (I also wonder if Paul was interacting with non-Christian churches).

[Secret Alias]

or the texts reflect redaction to show such modification

I don't understand what you mean here. My point was an editor changed Paul's words to reflect an alleged 'change of mind' upon publication. But clearly this is out of step with the heresies who said he had attained 'perfect knowledge.' Someone with 'perfect knowledge' wouldn't make any mistakes. He wouldn't be all excited about his experience and later go - 'oops, there I go again getting carried away.' The presence of these 'oops' passages is to show that he had episodes of lunacy and ultimately recognized that and came to accept the authority of the Jerusalem Church.

(I also wonder if Paul was interacting with non-Christian churches).

What is a 'non-Christian church'? Never heard of such a thing.

[Secret Alias]

The bottom line for me is that all parenthetical phrases in the Pauline writings are probably signs of later interpolations.

[robert j]

The phrases about “fourteen years” and “whether in the body or out of the body” from 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 were not pertinent to Clement’s arguments in the section of his Stromata where he cited this passage from Paul. But the portions he did cite from Paul were pertinent to his wider argument. And as he often did, Clement only used what he wanted and left out other portions.

Clement’s argument was about the inability of humans to see god directly or to express god by words ---

And when the Scripture says, "Moses entered into the thick darkness where God was," this shows to those capable of understanding, that God is invisible and beyond expression by words, And "the darkness " -- which is, in truth, the unbelief and ignorance of the multitude -- obstructs the gleam of truth. And again Orpheus, the theologian, aided from this quarter, says: "One is perfect in himself, and all things are made the progeny of one," or, "are born;" for so also is it written. He adds: "Him No one of mortals has seen, but He sees all." And he adds more clearly: "Him see I not, for round about, a cloud Has settled; for in mortal eyes are small, And mortal pupils -- only flesh and bones grow there." To these statements the apostle will testify: "I know a man in Christ, caught up into the third heaven, and thence into Paradise, who heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak," -- intimating thus the impossibility of expressing God, and indicating that what is divine is unutterable by human power … (Stromata, Book 5, ch 12)

[Secret Alias]

Do you have other examples of Clement dropping whole sections of verses out of cited texts? Why cite the text when he could have just alluded to the material? He's copying down the text because the way his text reads he doesn't have to make a vague allusion to the material. The 'in or out of the body' business so obviously fits the agenda of the Church Fathers it has to have been written by one of them. It's something Irenaeus or Tertullian would have added to the text (but Tertullian was just re-purposing Irenaeus).

[Secret Alias]

It's the same thing we see happen in 1 Timothy chapter 2:

A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

This fake epistle was written by Irenaeus or perhaps Polycarp. Not surprisingly these same ideas find their way into various Pauline texts especially 1 Corinthians. Clearly though the author of 1 Timothy knew the bit about Eve from 2 Corinthians 11. But the material is developed to support more traditional gender roles in the Church.

[Secret Alias]

Another example of parenthetical phrasing demonstrating an interpolation - Romans 1:13:

I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles.

I think Paul was present in the community when giving the address. It wasn't written and sent in the mail. Paul's speech was written down.

[Secret Alias]

Clement has a tendency to cite the complete citation even when parenthetical statements are couched within the original citation. From the very same book:

Rightly, therefore, the divine apostle says, "By revelation the mystery was made known to me (as I wrote before in brief, in accordance with which, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets."110 For there is an instruction of the perfect, of which, writing to the Colossians, he says, "We cease not to pray for you, and beseech that ye may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that ye may walk worthy of the Lord to all pleasing; being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might according to the glory of His power."111 And again he says, "According to the disposition of the grace of God which is given me, that ye may fulfil the word of God; the mystery which has been hid from ages and generations, which now is manifested to His saints: to whom God wished to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations."112 So that, on the one hand, then, are the mysteries which were hid till the time of the apostles, and were delivered by them as they received from the Lord, and, concealed in the Old Testament, were manifested to the saints.

There is no need for Clement to cite the emboldened material here. He does so because his habit was to cite the texts in full as they were preserved by his Alexandrian Church.

[robert j]

Do you have other examples of Clement dropping whole sections of verses out of cited texts?

I provided another example on the preceding page (about the middle of page 7) of this thread. I could provide several examples because Clement did that many times in his Stromata. But I'm going to take leave of my participation in this for now.

[MrMacSon]

or the texts reflect redaction to show such modification

I don't understand what you mean here. My point was an editor changed Paul's words to reflect an alleged 'change of mind' upon publication.

That is what I mean. you implied Paul's words reflected Paul's thoughts alone. Although you seems to indicate that a few sentences later -

The presence of these 'oops' passages is to show that he had episodes of lunacy and ultimately recognized that and came to accept the authority of the Jerusalem Church.

(I also wonder if Paul was interacting with non-Christian 'churches').

What is a 'non-Christian church'? Never heard of such a thing.

A gentile/pagan 'church'/community: there are indications these had bishops & priests in hierarchical structures.