Secret Alias wrote:
It assumes you know what the true tradition was
.
I see where your mistakes lie.
You don't have a clue what a fact is and what an assumption is.
It is a fact Israelite Judaism existed before Hellenistic Diaspora Judaism adopted the foreign religion and changed the laws to meet the cross cultural needs.
While Hellenism permeated Judaism, that did not make all of Israel Hellenist, nor was all of Hellenism fully adopted in Israel.
There is no damned assumption, only facts. Christianity FACTUALLY evolved from Hellenistic Judaism.
You don't have a clue what a fact is and what an assumption is.
I see. Thanks for pointing that out. So when you speak of 'perverting' the Israelite tradition you are saying you know what the original Israelite tradition was. How do you arrive at this knowledge?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
The original Israelite tradition in the Second Commonwealth period was the Pentateuch. So the Samaritans who are steadfastly devoted to that book and reject all others must represent something very close to that original tradition later perverted by the Jews for instance who no longer venerate the holy mountain referenced in the Pentateuch and have expanded the canon of books to include lots of unsanctioned material at the very beginning, right?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
I don't see how with such stark language as you employ that Judaism as such must be understood to be a perversion of the original Mosaic covenant.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias wrote:I don't see how with such stark language as you employ that Judaism as such must be understood to be a perversion of the original Mosaic covenant.
In the first century there was quite the diversity in Judaism itself. Much of this was due to outside cultures perverting the Israelite traditions.
Israelites always beaten down and oppressed, and rebuilding their people and culture and religion, while in a state of evolution. Judaism was still their religion.
Taking a Pious Aramaic oppressed Galilean, and some Roman citizen in the Diaspora who found value in monotheism but would not follow all those stupid traditions and laws.
NOW if YOU cannot address these differences in context between these two groups, you have no business discussing religious history. Or even addressing how Christianity FACTUALLY evolved away from Judaism
Christianity is FACTUALLY about how monotheism spread out of Israel, if your context is different, you have no business discussing religious history
But all you do is spout slogans. Please answer the question. If you are going to posit an 'ur-tradition' - a 'pure form' of Mosaic worship - then it would stand to reason that this tradition would be something like the Samaritans i.e. a tradition which zealously guarded the Law and only the Law without incorporating any new texts or distractions from the word of God, right?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
"The original Mosaic tradition" can't be centered around the holiness of Jerusalem, right? Because Jerusalem isn't even mentioned (let along 'holy') in the Pentateuch.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias wrote:But all you do is spout slogans. Please answer the question. If you are going to posit an 'ur-tradition' - a 'pure form' of Mosaic worship - then it would stand to reason that this tradition would be something like the Samaritans i.e. a tradition which zealously guarded the Law and only the Law without incorporating any new texts or distractions from the word of God, right?
Hell no. There was no pure form.
Even the Pharisees were divided between Hellenism.
Martin Hengel made good points but his view on Hellenism needs to be adjusted. It is outdated.
Israelites were Jews.
Hellenist in the Diaspora mirrored Proselytes. This is the origin of Christianity.
Christianity FACTUALLY is the Hellenistic divorce of cultural Judaism. Hellenist did not want to be identified with those filthy oppressed rebellious Jews.
Address we have more then two different cultures. There is Judaism and LESS Judaism to the point it was not Judaism.
So you can speak of the 'perversion' of the original tradition by 'Hellenistic Jews' but when it is convenient there is no original tradition? You are so fucking inconsistent it's not funny. You're obsession with 'Hellenism' is just a sign of Philistinism. You've just got that far in your understanding of ancient Israelite religions presumably because (a) you don't possess much in the way of intellectual probity and (b) you are only interested in 'the Jews' as far it/they relate to your former Lord and Savior. Do me and everyone else at the forum a favor finish reading whatever 'book' you were reading on ancient Israelite religion. If you are now going to abandon the idea that there was an 'ur-religion' then you have to shut up about the proselytes and Hellenists 'corrupting' this or that tradition because you've just admitted you don't know what you are talking about.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote