Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigrapha?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigra

Post by John2 »

Neil wrote:

"The Law and the Prophets were "until John" -- they witnessed to the Christ."

Not to change the subject, but this reminds me of an interesting difference in Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew 11:13. As Nehemia Gordon notes (The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus pg. 43-44):
If I were Shem-Tov writing a polemic against Catholic Christianity I would have brought this verse as my first argument. Here in black and white the Greek Matthew says that the Tanach was not talking about Yeshua; the Tanach only prophesied up until John the Baptist while Yeshua's ministry was not foretold by the Tanach. That's what it says in the Greek Matthew! The Hebrew Matthew, though, has a slight but highly significant change. The Hebrew says, 'For all the prophets and the Torah spoke concerning John' ... This Hebrew text makes more sense. The Hebrew is saying that throughout the Tanach there are references to a prophet such as John the Baptist ... In Greek the words for 'until' and 'concerning' are substantially different [heos vs. peri] but in Hebrew the difference is only a single letter [ad vs. al] ... If Shem-Tov's Hebrew Matthew is just a translation from Greek, why would the Hebrew translation make more sense than the Greek original? It would have been in Shem-Tov's interest to preserve this Greek reading which lays the groundwork for a solid argument against Catholicism, which, after all, was his stated goal.


Dalet and lamed (in ad and al) look similar and would have been easy to confuse if the Greek Matthew was translated from Hebrew, similar to the possible vav/yod error in Mt. 23:2 regarding whether Jesus said to obey the Pharisees ("they" in the Greek) or Moses ("he" in the Hebrew).
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Secret Alias
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Re: Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigra

Post by Secret Alias »

I think the Hebrew is original and is a very significant reading. Thanks
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Secret Alias
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Re: Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigra

Post by Secret Alias »

The idea that the messiah already came is Justin's Jewish opponents POV.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Ulan
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Re: Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigra

Post by Ulan »

I assume the ascension had to come into play when the ideas about resurrection changed. Paul's Christ was spiritual, which made an ascension unnecessary. This spirit still talks to him while living in heaven and the border between realms is quite open. The resurrections in gMatthew and John 21 (the Galilean ones) are somewhere in between. The spiritual body gets more visibility, but it's still rather distant. That doesn't really need any adaptation yet. Finally, John 20 and gLuke (the Jerusalem appearances) assume a rather solid body, which probably gave rise to the question how that went up to heaven. Acts also changes the spirit that talks to Paul from Jesus directly to the Holy Spirit, as a result of the larger distance between realms.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigra

Post by MrMacSon »

Ulan wrote:I assume the ascension had to come into play when the ideas about resurrection changed.
Simon S. Lee says, in "Jesus' Transfiguration & the Believers' Transformation: A Study of the Transfiguration and Its Development in Early Christian Writings" (Mohr Siebeck, 2009), "in the Apocalypse of Peter the Transfiguration story seems to be post-dated after the resurrection and right before the ascension, inasmuch as the Olivet discourse .. has been post-dated after the resurrection." And he states that Jesus own transfiguration is not mentioned in the Apocalypse of Peter (footnote 54, p.144).

Lee says on the same page (p.144) that, "according to Bultman and others, the Transfiguration account in Apoc. Peter is not only older than the Synotic's [account], but also strong evidence that ... the original Transfiguration account is about the resurrected Jesus."


Lee says "the Lukan phrase "behold two men" draws together the transfiguration, the Resurrection, and the Ascension (9:30. 24:4; Acts 1:10)"

Lee also discusses the Luke account of the conversation between Moses & Elijah about the 'exodus' of Jesus in Jerusalem (9:31) and how 'exodus' is "a euphemism for death (cf. 2 Peter 1:15; Wis 3:2, 7:6; Josephus Ant 4.8.2 189) and all of the events of Jesus life, including his resurrection and ascension." (p.117)
andrewcriddle
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Re: Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigra

Post by andrewcriddle »

MrMacSon wrote:
Ulan wrote:I assume the ascension had to come into play when the ideas about resurrection changed.
Simon S. Lee says, in "Jesus' Transfiguration & the Believers' Transformation: A Study of the Transfiguration and Its Development in Early Christian Writings" (Mohr Siebeck, 2009), "in the Apocalypse of Peter the Transfiguration story seems to be post-dated after the resurrection and right before the ascension, inasmuch as the Olivet discourse .. has been post-dated after the resurrection." And he states that Jesus own transfiguration is not mentioned in the Apocalypse of Peter (footnote 54, p.144).

Lee says on the same page (p.144) that, "according to Bultman and others, the Transfiguration account in Apoc. Peter is not only older than the Synotic's [account], but also strong evidence that ... the original Transfiguration account is about the resurrected Jesus."


Lee says "the Lukan phrase "behold two men" draws together the transfiguration, the Resurrection, and the Ascension (9:30. 24:4; Acts 1:10)"

Lee also discusses the Luke account of the conversation between Moses & Elijah about the 'exodus' of Jesus in Jerusalem (9:31) and how 'exodus' is "a euphemism for death (cf. 2 Peter 1:15; Wis 3:2, 7:6; Josephus Ant 4.8.2 189) and all of the events of Jesus life, including his resurrection and ascension." (p.117)
One problem with regarding Apocalypse of Peter as prior to the Synoptics here is that it seems to have closer parallels with Matthew than with Mark or Luke.
Influence of Matthew

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MrMacSon
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Re: Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigra

Post by MrMacSon »

andrewcriddle wrote: One problem with regarding Apocalypse of Peter as prior to the Synoptics here is that it seems to have closer parallels with Matthew than with Mark or Luke.
Influence of Matthew
Perhaps Matthew (and Luke) used the Apocalypse of Peter(?), and Massaux distinguishes between the Greek and Ethiopic versions of the Apoc Peter - the Ethiopic version has greater alignment with Matthew that the Greek, and the Greek version seems to align more with Luke ( eg. the parable of the fig tree) -pp.108-111.
Adam
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Re: Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigra

Post by Adam »

About as convincing as arguing that miracles are possible.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigra

Post by andrewcriddle »

MrMacSon wrote:
andrewcriddle wrote: One problem with regarding Apocalypse of Peter as prior to the Synoptics here is that it seems to have closer parallels with Matthew than with Mark or Luke.
Influence of Matthew
Perhaps Matthew (and Luke) used the Apocalypse of Peter(?), and Massaux distinguishes between the Greek and Ethiopic versions of the Apoc Peter - the Ethiopic version has greater alignment with Matthew that the Greek, and the Greek version seems to align more with Luke ( eg. the parable of the fig tree) -pp.108-111.
IIUC you are misunderstanding here.
The parable of the fig tree is based on Luke but it is found in the Ethiopic text of the Apocalypse not the Greek fragment.
See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... james.html

Andrew Criddle
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MrMacSon
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Re: Is Acts the 1st Entirely Spurious Historical Pseudepigra

Post by MrMacSon »

andrewcriddle wrote: IIUC you are misunderstanding here.
The parable of the fig tree is based on Luke but it is found in the Ethiopic text of the Apocalypse not the Greek fragment.
See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... james.html

Andrew Criddle
mmm What I gleaned from Masssaux with respect to the parable of the fig tree ( 6. Apoc. Pet. 2:1) was

p.103 -
"Lk. was not here the source of the Apocalypse of Peter; indeed, the introductory statement, "receive ye the parable of the fig tree," is missing; moreover, the Lucan text extends to all threes the parable of the fig tree, and it does not have any clause corresponding to "as soon as its shoots have gone forth," which we do read in Mt and Mk.

... I [Massaux] have consistently found the author showed considerable fidelity to Mt., ... I am led to believe ... that the author follows, here, again, the Matthean text."
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