Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:

iskander wrote:Why was Jesus baptized? He was a religious man who believed ' in the world to come' and its associated consequences, but could no longer accept the atoning sacrificial system of the temple.

Maybe, but Mark does not tell this. I’m not sure whether all answers beyond a simple “he accepted John’s baptism (and trusted him)” could be a bit eisegesis.

Did he trust John? He must have done when he was baptized , but that event would be only one of many in his personal quest . Jesus was not a baptizer.
{quote]Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsəˈdʒiːsəs/; from the Greek preposition εἰς "into" and the ending from the English word exegesis, Greek ἐξήγησις, which in turn is derived from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis

Yes , of course it is eisegesis, - aka Gnostic knowledge- aka Faith knowledge- aka Heretic knowledge- aka ..., But which one of the many is the preferable one?

The one in this hymn?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E969xwHA91E

iskander wrote:Yes , of course it is eisegesis, - aka Gnostic knowledge- aka Faith knowledge- aka Heretic knowledge- aka ..., But which one of the many is the preferable one?

Basically, always your eisegesis

iskander wrote:Did he trust John? He must have done when he was baptized ,

But here I tend to disagree.

It seems this is what the text indicates. That also these guys were baptized.

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:

iskander wrote:Yes , of course it is eisegesis, - aka Gnostic knowledge- aka Faith knowledge- aka Heretic knowledge- aka ..., But which one of the many is the preferable one?

Basically, always your eisegesis

iskander wrote:Did he trust John? He must have done when he was baptized ,

But here I tend to disagree.

Mark 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mark 11:27 And they came again to Jerusalem. And as he was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to him, 28 and they said to him, “By what authority are you doing these things, or who gave you this authority to do them?” 29 Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one question; answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. 30 Was the baptism of John from heaven or from man? Answer me.” 31 And they discussed it with one another, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’

It seems this is what the text indicates. That also these guys were baptized.

Mk 1: 4 says John had fans .-Is this one an important verse?
many guys were baptized, I said this earlier . We agree on that one

iskander wrote:]John the baptizer is an ascetic proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. John is forgiving sins.!!!???. And individuals went out to him to confess and be forgiven. Jesus is one of those men who seek forgiveness from a' quack' and this choice would have required prior careful thought from Jesus; a teacher- student situation and explains the why John rates Jesus so highly.

Mk 11:27 says Jesus did not answer the question.- What do you think this verse is saying?

iskander wrote:Is this one an important verse?

1) hypothesis

iskander wrote:Did he trust John? He must have done when he was baptized ,

2) possible argument against the hypothesis
- Mk 1:4 „all Jerusalemites were going out to John”
- Therefore also the chief priests and the scribes and the elders
- But they did not trust John
- Therefore trust in John is not necessary when one was baptized


3) argument against the possible argument

iskander wrote: Mk 1:4 says John had fans.

4) argument against the argument against the possible argument
- No, Mk 1:4 says that „all Jerusalemites were going out to John”.
- We think it means only that “John had fans”.
- But if we take it literally then Mk 11:31 would make perfect sense. The chief priests and the scribes and the elders “did not believe John”. His only message was Mk 1:7 (And he preached, saying, “After me comes he who is mightier than I, ...”)
- Therefore they must have heard this message. Where, if not in Mk 1:7?
- And this they reasoned in a discussion about the authority of Jesus.
- It could be also the source of Mark’s successor

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:

iskander wrote:Is this one an important verse?

1) hypothesis

iskander wrote:Did he trust John? He must have done when he was baptized ,

2) possible argument against the hypothesis
- Mk 1:4 „all Jerusalemites were going out to John”
- Therefore also the chief priests and the scribes and the elders
- But they did not trust John
- Therefore trust in John is not necessary when one was baptized


3) argument against the possible argument

iskander wrote: Mk 1:4 says John had fans.

4) argument against the argument against the possible argument
- No, Mk 1:4 says that „all Jerusalemites were going out to John”.
- We think it means only that “John had fans”.
- But if we take it literally then Mk 11:31 would make perfect sense. The chief priests and the scribes and the elders “did not believe John”. His only message was Mk 1:7 (And he preached, saying, “After me comes he who is mightier than I, ...”)
- Therefore they must have heard this message. Where, if not in Mk 1:7?
- And this they reasoned in a discussion about the authority of Jesus.
- It could be also the source of Mark’s successor

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

4John the baptizer appeared* in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5And people from the whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him, and were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins



John and Jesus were on the same side and the clerics were their opponents.The clerics run an expensive Temple which they used to sell forgiveness through an elaborate ritual which involved the killing of animals, dressing up in fancy clothes etc.
John claimed to offer all that almost for free etc. Jesus went to John as a customer to be forgiven etc.
The clerics visited John and later Jesus as opponents , as enemies of those fraudsters, even as enemies of heretics.
Men visited John trusting his capacity to forgive the sins. Jesus was one of those men.


Jesus eventually learned that every man and woman can forgive himself and herself . If the death of an animal in a building can forgive a human and John can forgive in the river Jordan , then God alone can forgive if man repented .


Jesus was a formidable thinker but his disciples eventually replicated the old Mosaic Temple with the new papal Vatican

iskander wrote:John and Jesus were on the same side and the clerics were their opponents.The clerics run an expensive Temple which they used to sell forgiveness through an elaborate ritual which involved the killing of animals, dressing up in fancy clothes etc.
John claimed to offer all that almost for free etc. Jesus went to John as a customer to be forgiven etc.
The clerics visited John and later Jesus as opponents , as enemies of those fraudsters, even as enemies of heretics.
Men visited John trusting his capacity to forgive the sins. Jesus was one of those men.

Jesus eventually learned that every man and woman can forgive himself and herself . If the death of an animal in a building can forgive a human and John can forgive in the river Jordan , then God alone can forgive if man repented .

Jesus was a formidable thinker but his disciples eventually replicated the old Mosaic Temple with the new papal Vatican

At the end, you speak about history and I about this peculiar text. It could be that you have chosen the better part

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:

iskander wrote:John and Jesus were on the same side and the clerics were their opponents.The clerics run an expensive Temple which they used to sell forgiveness through an elaborate ritual which involved the killing of animals, dressing up in fancy clothes etc.
John claimed to offer all that almost for free etc. Jesus went to John as a customer to be forgiven etc.
The clerics visited John and later Jesus as opponents , as enemies of those fraudsters, even as enemies of heretics.
Men visited John trusting his capacity to forgive the sins. Jesus was one of those men.

Jesus eventually learned that every man and woman can forgive himself and herself . If the death of an animal in a building can forgive a human and John can forgive in the river Jordan , then God alone can forgive if man repented .

Jesus was a formidable thinker but his disciples eventually replicated the old Mosaic Temple with the new papal Vatican

At the end, you speak about history and I about this peculiar text. It could be that you have chosen the better part

I have enjoyed talking with you. Thanks for your time.