Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Posted: **Sun May 08, 2016 11:16 am**

I think Candida Moss has undervalued the significance of martyrdom in early Christianity. I think rather than Christians always being innocent victims of Imperial persecutions many Christians eagerly sought out to be killed in order to cleanse themselves of sin - much like modern day suicide bombers (albeit without the collateral damage to innocents). Here is a sample passage from De Singularitate Clericorum:

But they say: “In martyrdom everything is forgiven us, just as was granted to our parents.” Let us all trust martyrdom, then, to cleanse all sins, so that we who work to act well might maneuver among luxuries and wander the paths of sins, abandon the ropes and relax the reins. Let us go by whatever way the world has taken us and wherever the devil has summoned: let us fornicate freely, let us envy, let us pillage, let us cheat, let us, safe, bring together all bad things: martyrdom will rescue us and we will escape. For thus the apostle Paul promises: “Let us do evil so that there may come good; whose damnation is just” (Rom. 3:8). Let those who have been taught by the mathematicians to have foreknowledge about tomorrow surrender hope for this martyrdom and let them await these crowns who have, beyond the angels and Christ, learned through the astrologers to know the seasons which the father stationed in his power, so that indeed then they might remember that they should have done well before the time of martyrdom, when they realize that the day of the Lord is “just like a thief” (Matt. 24:44). But let us believe that martyrdom now already hangs upon them. Meanwhile, until they become martyrs, let them come underneath the heading of the laws so that they might be made subject to judgement, unless they should be disarmed with arms

I think this understanding is extremely ancient - dating back to the origins of the tradition. This of course begs the question - did Jesus have to die to purify himself? I think there is something to this and that what was understood to have happened with Jesus at the crucifixion applied to all martyrs after him. But the important thing is to remember that a man did not have to live a saintly life to in the end become a saint.

Posted: **Sun May 08, 2016 12:26 pm**

How early? Organized persecution is undocumented, except in questionable Christian sources, likely interpolated from the 4th century onward, before Emperor Decius.

I do think it played a role. But I don't think there was any real persecution before Emperor Decius. It wasn't simply Christians who were persecuted, but as the victors in the next century they wrote the history and remembered it.

So great was the trauma of the Decian and Diocletian persecutions that it changed the meaning of Martyr from witness to victim. It was so important that they back dated persecution in deutero works (eg, Apology of Tertullian, Justin, and interpolations in Irenaeus, etc). To show the magnanimity of the fourth century Christian Emperors and their superiority over even the revered great Imperials of the 1st and 2nd century, undocumented persecutions were created. In this last point Moss is correct, many of the persecutions are invented memories (eg, Nero's human torches story, or Pliny's faux 10th book of letters).

But yes, as Christianity became the State religion, the concept of dying martyrs made a powerful symbol of dedication. Good stuff in 325 CE.

Posted: **Sun May 08, 2016 12:47 pm**

Secret Alias wrote:This of course begs the question - did Jesus have to die to purify himself?

.

No, but the theology on this changed over time, so "when" becomes a question.

If a man was crucified that generated the mythology think himself he would have to die to be purified? I don't think we would ever know due to how Hellenist reacted to the later mythology.

Posted: **Sun May 08, 2016 12:50 pm**

Secret Alias wrote:I think Candida Moss has undervalued the significance of martyrdom in early Christianity. .

She laid out a great overall picture compared to the apologetic position. And I do agree with you here.

Of course the events were exaggerated heavily, but the historical core IMHO was there from the beginning.

Posted: **Sun May 08, 2016 5:29 pm**

The author was writing against the importance of martyrdom. . .

These men then have the audacity to argue that, even if their actions are immoral, it will not matter because in martyrdom all sins are forgiven (De Sing., 35). Our author mocks not only their confidence that they will in fact be martyred, but also the idea that they can be sure that Judgement day will not pre-empt their martyrdoms. He also mocks their logic, taking it to its extreme conclusion: let us be as profligate and immoral as we please, and then we will become martyrs and all will be forgiven. Against this way of thinking our author quotes Paul, Romans 3:8, to prove that doing evil, even to do good, is damnable.

http://www.episcopus.org/wp-content/upl ... scopus.pdf

Posted: **Sun May 08, 2016 8:11 pm**

It depends, as Stuart has alluded to, what martyrdom & when.

And how much of narratives of 'Christian martyrdom' is fulfilling Mark outlining the persecutions Christians may expect if they are faithful (Mk 13:9-13).

Posted: **Sun May 08, 2016 9:06 pm**

Secret Alias wrote:. . But the important thing is to remember that a man did not have to live a saintly life to in the end become a saint.

Like the thief on the cross?

Posted: **Sun May 08, 2016 10:12 pm**

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