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Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 2:15 pm
by Secret Alias
The identification of Simon as Samaritan is certainly odd and not in keeping with what we expect to find with respect to Paul but notice also his association with a docetic Christ:
Dositheus, perceiving that this artful accusation of Simon was dissipating the opinion of him with respect to many, so that they did not think that he was the Standing One, came in a rage to the usual place of meeting, and finding Simon, struck him with a staff. But it seemed to pass through the body of Simon as if he had been smoke. Thereupon Dositheus, being confounded, said to him, 'If you are the Standing One, I also will worship you.' Then Simon said that he was; and Dositheus, knowing that he himself was not the Standing One, fell down and worshipped; and associating himself with the twenty-nine chiefs, he raised Simon to his own place of repute; and thus, not many days after, Dositheus himself, while he (Simon) stood, fell down and died.
It is worth noting that the debate which immediately follows (but is not present in the Recognitions as far as I know) is typically Dosithean - viz. the orthodox falsification of scriptures. Samaritan sources tell us that the Dositheans had a distinct edition of the Pentateuch recognizable owing to their variant readings:
For the Scriptures have had joined to them many falsehoods against God on this account. The prophet Moses having by the order of God delivered the law, with the explanations, to certain chosen men, some seventy in number, in order that they also might instruct such of the people as chose, after a little the written law had added to it certain falsehoods contrary to the law of God, who made the heaven and the earth, and all things in them; the wicked one having dared to work this for some righteous purpose. And this took place in reason and judgment, that those might be convicted who should dare to listen to the things written against God, and those who, through love towards Him, should not only disbelieve the things spoken against Him, but should not even endure to hear them at all, even if they should happen to be true, judging it much safer to incur danger with respect to religious faith, than to live with an evil conscience on account of blasphemous words.

Simon, therefore, as I learn, intends to come into public, and to speak of those chapters against God that are added to the Scriptures, for the sake of temptation, that he may seduce as many wretched ones as he can from the love of God. For we do not wish to say in public that these chapters are added to the Bible, since we should thereby perplex the unlearned multitudes, and so accomplish the purpose of this wicked Simon. For they not having yet the power of discerning, would flee from us as impious; or, as if not only the blasphemous chapters were false, they would even withdraw from the word. Wherefore we are under a necessity of assenting to the false chapters, and putting questions in return to him concerning them, to draw him into a strait, and to give in private an explanation of the chapters that are spoken against God to the well-disposed after a trial of their faith; and of this there is but one way, and that a brief one. It is this.

Everything that is spoken or written against God is false. But that we say this truly, not only for the sake of reputation, but for the sake of truth, I shall convince you when my discourse has proceeded a little further. Whence you, my most beloved Clement, ought not to be sorry at Simon's having interposed a day between this and the discussion. For today, before the discussion, you shall be instructed concerning the chapters added to the Scriptures; and then in the discussion concerning the only one and good God, the Maker also of the world, you ought not to be distracted. But in the discussion you will even wonder how impious men, overlooking the multitudes of things that are spoken in the Scriptures for God, and looking at those that are spoken against Him, gladly bring these forward; and thus the hearers, by reason of ignorance, believing the things against God, become outcasts from His kingdom. Wherefore you, by advantage of the postponement, learning the mystery of the Scriptures, and gaining the means of not sinning against God, will incomparably rejoice.
Interestingly Peter agrees that the Scriptures have been corrupted. Yet another instance where it is heretic vs heretic in this story. And again Peter says immediately after:
Then Peter answered: Even although you had not asked me, I should have gone on in order, and afforded you the exposition of these matters, as I promised. Learn, then, how the Scriptures misrepresent Him in many respects, that you may know when you happen upon them.
The arguments of Peter are typically Dosithean throughout (at least as defined by my teacher I R M Boid).

Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 5:34 pm
by Secret Alias
But then they radically change (or at least so it seems) to an argument that the Pentateuch isn't monarchian enough!
Wherefore, far be it from us to believe that the Lord of all, who made the heaven and the earth, and all things that are in them, shares His government with others, or that He lies. For if He lies, then who speaks truth? Or that He makes experiments as in ignorance; for then who foreknows? And if He deliberates, and changes His purpose, who is perfect in understanding and permanent in design? If He envies, who is above rivalry? If He hardens hearts, who makes wise? If He makes blind and deaf, who has given sight and hearing? If He commits pilfering, who administers justice? If He mocks, who is sincere? If He is weak, who is omnipotent? If He is unjust, who is just? If He makes evil things, who shall make good thing?

But if He desires the fruitful hill (cf Gen 49:25), whose then are all things? If He is false, who then is true? If He dwells in a tabernacle, who is without bounds? If He is fond of fat, and sacrifices, and offerings, and drink-offerings, who then is without need, and who is holy, and pure, and perfect? If He is pleased with candles and candlesticks, who then placed the luminaries in heaven? If He dwells in shadow, and darkness, and storm, and smoke, who is the light that lightens the universe? If He comes with trumpets, and shoutings, and darts, and arrows, who is the looked-for tranquillity of all? If He loves war, who then wishes peace? If He makes evil things, who makes good things? If He is without affection, who is a lover of men? If He is not faithful to His promises, who shall be trusted? If He loves the wicked, and adulterers, and murderers, who shall be a just judge? If He changes His mind, who is stedfast? If He chooses evil men, who then takes the part of the good?
To me at least this is not an original argument for a single ruler (= monarchos) as much as it is a muted argument in favor of two powers. I don't know where the author gets 'fruitful' from 'utmost' in Genesis. But the original Hebrew reads:

בִּרְכֹת אָבִיךָ, גָּבְרוּ עַל-בִּרְכֹת הוֹרַי, עַד-תַּאֲוַת, גִּבְעֹת עוֹלָם

תַּאֲוַ֖ת or "bounds" signifies "desire"; and Onkelos paraphrases the words,

``which the princes that were of old desired''

meaning either the angels who desire to look into heavenly things, or the patriarchs, who were desirous of the coming of the Messiah, and salvation by him; and so the Vulgate Latin version is, "until the desire of the everlasting hills should come. Peter seems to know Onkelos's interpretation or its source and attributes the 'desire' to God and condemns it!

Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 5:35 pm
by Secret Alias
I think either (a) the arguments of Simon Magus have been transferred to Simon Peter or more likely (b) the Simon of the narrative has the hero of the 'Jewish Christian' community and his arguments have been polished and 'corrected' and retained in 'Peter's' mouth.

Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 5:39 pm
by Secret Alias
And then continues:
Then Peter answered: You speak well in your inquiry; for it will be for your safety. Therefore listen: Since there are many things that are spoken by the Scriptures against God, as time presses on account of the evening, ask with respect to any one matter that you please, and I will explain it, showing that it is false, not only because it is spoken against God, but because it is really false. Then I answered: I wish to learn how, when the Scriptures say that God is ignorant, you can show that He knows?

Then Peter answered: You have presented us with a matter that can easily be answered. However, listen, how God is ignorant of nothing, but even foreknows. But first answer me what I ask of you. He who wrote the Bible, and told how the world was made, and said that God does not foreknow, was he a man or not? Then I said: He was a man. Then Peter answered: How, then, was it possible for him, being a man, to know assuredly how the world was made, and that God does not foreknow?

Then I, already perceiving the explanation, smiled, and said that he was a prophet. And Peter said: If, then, he was a prophet, being a man, he was ignorant of nothing, by reason of his having received foreknowledge from God; how then, should He, who gave to man the gift of foreknowledge, being God, Himself be ignorant? And I said: You have spoken rightly. Then Peter said: Come with me one step further. It being acknowledged by us that God foreknows all things, there is every necessity that the scriptures are false which say that He is ignorant, and those are true which say that He knows. Then said I: It must needs be so.

Then Peter said: If, therefore, some of the Scriptures are true and some false, with good reason said our Master, 'Be ye good money-changers,' inasmuch as in the Scriptures there are some true sayings and some spurious. And to those who err by reason of the false scriptures He fitly showed the cause of their error, saying, 'You therefore err, not knowing the true things of the Scriptures; for this reason you are ignorant also of the power of God.' Then said I: You have spoken very excellently.
Notice again that Peter cites from a non-canonical gospel and makes the classic 'heavenly Torah' argument identified in the rabbinic literature by Heschel a long while ago. In other words, God gave Moses only the ten commandments but Moses wrote the Torah on his own authority. This is again a heretical argument and it acknowledged not only by Simon Magus but by Simon Peter as well. This entire section 'sets up' or softens the heresy of what follows.

Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 5:41 pm
by Secret Alias
More antinomian arguments from the mouth of Peter:
For, as I am persuaded, neither was Adam a transgressor, who was fashioned by the hands of God; nor was Noah drunken, who was found righteous above all the world; nor did Abraham live with three wives at once, who, on account of his sobriety, was thought worthy of a numerous posterity; nor did Jacob associate with four—of whom two were sisters—who was the father of the twelve tribes, and who intimated the coming of the presence of our Master; nor was Moses a murderer, nor did he learn to judge from an idolatrous priest—he who set forth the law of God to all the world, and for his right judgment has been testified to as a faithful steward

Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:03 pm
by Secret Alias
Simon today is, as he arranged, prepared to come before all, and show from the Scriptures that He who made the heaven and the earth, and all things in them, is not the Supreme God, but that there is another, unknown and supreme, as being in an unspeakable manner God of gods; and that He sent two gods, one of whom is he who made the world, and the other he who gave the law. And these things he contrives to say, that he may dissipate the right faith of those who would worship the one and only God who made heaven and earth.
Peter must combat Simon's inferences from the corruptions of Scripture (which Peter also acknowledges) mainly to avoid Simon corrupting the Gentiles:
For to those from amongst the Gentiles who were about being persuaded respecting the earthly images that they are no gods, he has contrived to bring in opinions of many other gods, in order that, if they cease from the polytheo-mania, they may be deceived to speak otherwise, and even worse than they now do, against the sole government of God, so that they may not yet value the truths connected with that monarchy, and may never be able to obtain mercy. And for the sake of this attempt Simon comes to do battle with us, armed with the false chapters of the Scriptures. And what is more dreadful, he is not afraid to dogmatize thus against the true God from the prophets whom he does not in fact believe
So Peter's argument seems to be that the Pentateuch completely misrepresented the one true God who is absolutely perfect. Simon's argument is that the Torah shows there are two powers.

Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:10 pm
by Secret Alias
Gospel citation follows in discussion about why Jesus is the 'true prophet':
See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin. For they shall come, and shall sit here, and shall besiege it, and shall slay your children here.
Matthew 24 - Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Mark 13 - “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

Luke 21 - Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.” 7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

Diatessaron - See ye these great buildings? verily I say unto you, Days will come, when there shall not be left here a stone upon another, that shall not be cast down. And two days before the passover of unleavened bread, the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by deceit, and kill him: and they said, It shall not be at the feast, lest the people be agitated.

Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:19 pm
by MrMacSon
Secret Alias wrote: And, if we follow up on the idea that Simon might have been Paul, we end up with some interesting possibilities.

The first is clearly that Simon claimed to be Jesus or God. Let's begin by noting other parallels with Paul. The first is obviously that - like the Catholic understanding of Paul (but not the Marcionite) - Simon "came before me [Peter] to the Gentiles." (Homilies 2.17) Moreover, like the heretical understanding of Paul, the same narrative associates Paul with a 'secret gospel':
And thus, as the true Prophet [Jesus] has told us, a false prophet must first come from some deceiver; and then, in like manner, after the removal of the holy place,the true Gospel must be secretly sent abroad for the rectification of the heresies that shall be. After this, also, towards the end, Antichrist must first come, and then our Jesus must be revealed to be indeed the Christ; and after this, the eternal light having sprung up, all the things of darkness must disappear (ibid)
The very notion that 'heresies must be established' is authentically Pauline - viz. "No doubt there have to be schools (αἱρέσεις) among you to show which of you have God's approval." (1 Corinthians 11:19) The 'sects' themselves cited this as proof that Paul encouraged a variety of opinions. But this is an unusual situation where the author (more likely editor) of the Homilies has Peter channel Paul against Simon who, in fact, is clearly a caricature of Paul!
Secret Alias wrote: I want to stress that the POV of the Clementine Homilies is very similar to that of the earliest 'anti-heretical' history associated with Acts, Polycarp and Irenaeus. Both posit a 'golden age' in the apostolic period where Peter and the apostles combated the very heretical doctrines which became widespread and in fact dominant in the Christian landscape. Polycarp emerges as a prophetic figure within the Christian community calling them back to an imagined 'truth' of Peter and the apostles (at least implicitly). But the world in which he operates is dominated by the doctrines of the heresies.
That is very interesting, and clever.

Heresies are being established retrospectively?

And the narrative is also able to say "the true Prophet [Jesus] has told us,' a false prophet must first come from some deceiver' .." b/c the sotry is retrojected into the early first century?

"the true Gospel must be secretly sent abroad for the rectification of the heresies that shall be" is also interesting - done in a distant location so the locals then, or in the near future, cannot dispute the 'new theological-narrative' / the 'new teaching' ?/

Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:23 pm
by Secret Alias
Adam had the Holy Spirit and knew the Torah (Ten Commandments?) - "Be not deceived. Our father was ignorant of nothing; since, indeed, even the law publicly current, though charging him with the crime of ignorance for the sake of the unworthy, sends to him those desirous of knowledge."

Gospel citation follows -
The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat; all things whatsoever they say to you, hear them.' Hear them, He said, as entrusted with the key of the kingdom, which is knowledge, which alone can open the gate of life, through which alone is the entrance to eternal life. But truly, He says, they possess the key, but those wishing to enter they do not suffer to do so.
Matthew 24 - The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do

Diatessaron On the seat of Moses are seated the scribes and Pharisees: everything that they say unto you now to keep, keep and do: but according to their deeds do ye not; for they say, and do not. And they bind heavy burdens, and lay them on the shoulders of the people; while they with one of their fingers will not come 30, near them. But all their deeds they do to make a shew before men. And all the multitude were hearing that with pleasure.

Indeed Jesus is rarely (if ever) called 'the Son' in the treatise. He is mostly in this section 'the Father' and gives a strong impression that the author is a monarchian heretic, even a Patripassian:
On this account, I say, He Himself, rising from His seat as a father for his children, proclaiming the things which from the beginning were delivered in secret to the worthy, extending mercy even to the Gentiles, and compassionating the souls of all, neglected His own kindred. For He, being thought worthy to be King of the world to come, fights against him who, by predestination, has usurped the kingdom that now is. And the thing which exceedingly grieved Him is this, that by those very persons for whom, as for sons, he did battle, He was assailed, on account of their ignorance. And yet He loved even those who hated Him, and wept over the unbelieving, and blessed those who slandered Him, and prayed for those who were in enmity against Him. And not only did He do this as a father, but also taught His disciples to do the like, bearing themselves as towards brethren. This did our Father, this did our Prophet.

Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:26 pm
by MrMacSon
Secret Alias wrote:So we note the framework again. Jesus is the 'true prophet.' The terminology again goes back to Moses. Both Simon (Paul) and Peter claim to also be 'the true Prophet.' But Jesus warned that others would claim to be him around the time of the destruction of the temple (Mark chapter 13 and variants). At that time (i.e. post 70 CE) the secret gospel will be revealed which leads to the establishment of the Antichrist (another Pauline concept cf Thessalonians). At that time (i.e. the appearance of the Antichrist and the destruction of the temple Jesus will be revealed to be the Christ. So the idea here is that Peter is struggling against Simon against a near future where the Simonian/Pauline worldview takes over the Christian identity. Only with the appearance of the Antichrist (who is strangely not Simon or Paul) will the truth finally be re-established, a 'truth' which is portrayed in this fictitious 'history' (i.e. a tradition established with Peter) which ultimately will be overcome. Very perplexing.

A core doctrine of the Homilies is that of a dualistic understanding of the universe where the female (or 'inferior') precedes the male (or 'perfect'). So Simon/Paul represents the inferior female revelation preparing the way for the appearance of Peter in the present but ultimately (again the story is written from the perspective of 'before 70 CE' and the triumph of the Pauline 'secret' doctrines) the defeat of the Simonian/Pauline mystery religion by the church of Peter with the revelation of the Antichrist:
Since, then, as I said, some men do not know the rule of combination, thence they do not know who is my precursor Simon. For if he were known, he would not be believed; but now, not being known, he is improperly believed; and though his deeds are those of a hater, he is loved; and though an enemy, he is received as a friend; and though he be death, he is desired as a saviour; and though fire, he is esteemed as light; and though a deceiver, he is believed as a speaker of truth (ibid 2.18)
This sounds like the 'Peter v Pauline' struggles that Detering says AD Loman concluded.