Page 2 of 16
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 3:15 pm
by gmx
The Nazareth synagogue wouldn't necessarily need to be a lavish building, would it? Could they have gotten away with slinging a couple of air conditioned shipping containers together? It seems possible.
The change in tone from astonishment to offense, and the sudden contradiction concerning his miracle working suggest a clumsy reworking of source material. Was the hometown episode inserted to provide retrospective agreement with later traditions?
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 3:35 pm
by Ben C. Smith
gmx wrote:The change in tone from astonishment to offense, and the sudden contradiction concerning his miracle working suggest a clumsy reworking of source material.
This goes to the heart of what I am asking. Do the apparent contradiction and the unheralded offense taken at Jesus follow from some cogent Marcan plan? Or are they signs of reworking other material? I see you seem to side with the latter.
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 3:38 pm
by outhouse
Ben C. Smith wrote:outhouse wrote:But then the tables turn, and people are offended with him. Why? What is the offense? ....
Make no mistake: I can think of reasons for the people to be offended at Jesus..., but without more of a hint from the author such thoughts are really only guesses.
Theological.
Building honour for typical low life peasants. They are one like jesus and encouraged all persons who eat by the labour of their hands.
....
Also the possibility the villagers were afraid he was bringing trouble into their village, so he was viewed in a negative light.
There is also this angle
“the Jews in general seem to have mistaken their own prophecies, when they expected the Messiah would exalt their nation to the highest pitch of wealth and power, for this was an end unworthy of so grand an interposition of Providence.
And they were offended at him; that is, although they heard such things from him, and saw such mighty works done by him, as they could not but think required a Divine influence and power, yet because by their reason they could not comprehend how one who had almost thirty years lived as a peasant amongst them, should come by any such acquaintance with or extraordinary influence from God, their passion quickly went over; and though they were more modest than, with their corrupt teachers, to say he did this by the devil, yet neither would they receive him and believe him, but slighted and despised him; as if God’s influence had been tied to their schools of the prophets.
I see you are in the same position I am in: we are both guessing, because Mark did not tell us.
Ben.
Agreed.
But is it not safe to say theological importance to the author/s took more importance over being historically accurate. I "guess" they had traditions that they molded around the theology they wanted to produce.
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 3:42 pm
by outhouse
gmx wrote:The Nazareth synagogue wouldn't necessarily need to be a lavish building, would it?
Just a house would work. But if the went to the house next door a week after, or gathered by the well, was it really a synagogue?
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 3:45 pm
by outhouse
Ben C. Smith wrote: Do the apparent contradiction and the unheralded offense taken at Jesus follow from some cogent Marcan plan? .
Not sure contradiction is the context I would propose here.
I don't think there is enough evidence to support reworking here.
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 3:50 pm
by outhouse
We have textual traditions of Nazareth in a very negative light in other text.
"Nothing good comes from such a place"
So then do you ask was it based on these passages? or common negative traditions with theological explanations for such?
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 4:37 pm
by John2
Ben wrote:
"Do the apparent contradiction and the unheralded offense taken at Jesus follow from some cogent Marcan plan? Or are they signs of reworking other material?"
Maybe it depends on the definition of "astonished" (
http://biblehub.com/greek/1605.htm). Could they have been "shocked" or in a panic?
Paul also mentions the "offense" that Jews took at Jesus and bases it on Isaiah. Maybe Mark based his account on Paul.
"So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense" (1 Cor. 1:23).
"Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished" (Gal. 5:11).
"... but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame" (Rom. 9:31-33).
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 5:59 pm
by Ben C. Smith
John2 wrote:Ben wrote:
"The first paragraph above seems to be leading in a positive direction. The local boy has come back home a wise and accomplished worker of miracles. Even the listing of his family members does not seem negative in that context. But then the tables turn, and people are offended with him. Why? What is the offense?"
I get the sense that they are saying, "Who does this guy think he is?" It wasn't just about miracles: "When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him ..."
That is one sense to get, I agree. I am not sure it is the only one. Why do you think Mark did not bother to tell us why the people were annoyed at him?
So they took offense to his teaching as well. And what did Jesus teach? In this context, at least, that he thought he was a prophet:
"Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.”
This statement comes after the notice that they are annoyed, but even if it sums up part of what he was teaching, there is still the matter that they attribute wisdom to him. That sounds positive to me.
And he did do some miracles there:
"And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He wondered at their unbelief."
In my view their "unbelief" (in Jesus' status and teachings and miracles) is in keeping with the general rejection of Jesus by Jews in Mark (culminating with their choice of Barabbas over him).
Yes, he did some miracles, according to the text; but the contradiction that I see is that he reproaches them for their unbelief, when they obviously believe he can do miracles. So yes, the unbelief has to be something else if we are to salvage the sense of the story. I agree that their unbelief is
in keeping with the rejection of Jesus by Jews, but in other spots in the gospel it is clear why they do not like him: he stands for things that they uphold, he threatens the established order with his very popularity, he constantly beats them in live debates, and he finally ticks them off with a bit of blasphemy at his trial. But here? It is not clear why they are rejecting him, is it? We can guess; we can rely on general feelings; but we have to do those things because the text is not as clear as it is in other spots.
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 6:03 pm
by Ben C. Smith
John2 wrote:Ben wrote:
"Do the apparent contradiction and the unheralded offense taken at Jesus follow from some cogent Marcan plan? Or are they signs of reworking other material?"
....
Paul also mentions the "offense" that Jews took at Jesus and bases it on Isaiah. Maybe Mark based his account on Paul.
"So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense" (1 Cor. 1:23).
"Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished" (Gal. 5:11).
"... but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame" (Rom. 9:31-33).
Of course, in Paul the offense is all about the crucifixion. Paul also seems to place the adoption as son of God at the resurrection. Maybe Mark does depend on Paul here, and moves the adoption back to the baptism while simultaneously moving the offense back correspondingly into his ministry. In this scenario, the offense
is a bit weird in this pericope, precisely because Mark is reworking a source: Paul. That actually makes some sense to me. Good point.
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 6:57 pm
by John2
It would explain their "unbelief" in Mk. 6:6 too. “See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."