Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Secret Alias wrote:But on a side note. Do you see how superior this approach is - ie going back to the actual debates about Marcion - than the approach of most of the other ants at the forum? Of course Mark and every other canonical gospel were reactions against the Marcionite gospel. They prefer of course to believe in the reality manufactured for them by Irenaeus and his henchmen. "But we have manuscripts of the gospel of Mark available to us today. Why should we have to consider a gospel with a flying Jesus and a Jesus passing through crowds like clouds. Too bad we don't actually have these 'super gospels' any more. But we can only limit our discussions to manuscripts that survived antiquity."

I think sometimes you stand in your own way. I don't think many of your ideas are fundamentally incompatible with ideas of others here on the forum. Your "Jesus = Ish" idea, the ideal man, the ideal "Adam"(?), is probably compatible with most ideas here that don't assume a strictly historical viewpoint. Not even the historicist view is completely incompatible, if there was a "Messiah reenactor", like for example gLuke's Jesus. If you then think of models that assume many rewrites of texts, you can squeeze "Marcion" in at many different points of gospel history. With Marcion = Paul you are already close to the root. If gMark was a composite text by itself (see the Koester model, e.g. with regard to the Bethsaida stories or Secret Mark), that leaves space for a Pauline precursor text (Koester also thinks gMark is an abbreviation). And, funny enough, that still also leaves room for gMark as a concise work of composition sometime after 70 AD. This just means that Irenaeus had less work to do, like some editing.

Really, the long time span we assume for gospel composition and editing leaves room for lots of different models, and in the end, they are often enough not really exclusive. The only model that is out in such a case is that all gospels had been written as we have them once de novo at a specific point and then preserved virtually unchanged.

But I'm wrestling with things and that are in the earliest sources. Look at the question which starts the discussion. "Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?" The answers obvious IF you spent even a minute thinking about Marcion. And wasn't the canon formed in reaction to Marcion? Isn't that very likely? I alert my dog to the presence of other dogs (so she can happily greet them) by saying "ah oh" (it goes back to when she was a puppy and I a first time dog owner). But she inevitably turns the wrong way to see where the ah oh is/are. It's uncanny. She's one hundred percent wrong. Every turn is the wrong direction. I sometimes feel the discussions at the forum is the same way. Of course almost every anomaly in Mark is a result of the late second century falsification effort. What better model is there? What is more likely?

Ulan wrote:

Coincidence? That both Tertullian's source and Ephrem make the same references in the same section even though the Syrophoenician woman only appears in Matthew?

I guess you mean Mark:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

In Matthew 15.21-28 she is called a Canaanite woman.

But the point is moot. The passage by Ephrem above does not mention either a Syrophoenician woman or a Canaanite woman. It merely paraphrases Luke 4.25-27 about the career of Elijah the Tishbite vis-à-vis widows and lepers.

"The house of Israel" = the passage. I am not the only one to think so. https://books.google.com/books?id=M6LoB ... em&f=false p. 68

And then this discussion will be over and another one will start up and we will all collectively forget that Justin, Marcion and the entire Eastern frontier had this "super gospel" which had a phantom Jesus who flew or that Paul was associated with a super gospel. It's amazing. I wish I had this sort of willful amnesia. My dog has it though. She leaves a room for a while and comes back and its a happy reunion all over again. Animal behaviorist say dogs lack "episodal memory." It may be more common in people than we realize.

Thanks Ben and Stephan.

Secret Alias wrote:And then this discussion will be over and another one will start up and we will all forget that Justin, Marcion and the entire Eastern frontier had this "super gospel" which had a phantom Jesus who flew. I wish I had this sort of willful amnesia.

Of course. Amnesia is a good trait. You constantly discover new things.

.
I think the "unbelief" is primarily that God's chosen one is identified as a simple human being

Mark	Matthew	Luke	John
6:1 He went away from there and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. 2 And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands?	13:53 And when Jesus had finished these parables (among others the parable of the sower!), he went away from there, 54 and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works?	4:17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” 20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 And all spoke well of him and marveled at the gracious words that were coming from his mouth.	6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?”	55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us?	22 And they said, “Is not this Joseph’s son?	41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?

nicht den üblichen Unsinn ...

Do we want the original question solved or not? Marcion. Otherwise go on with the synoptic comparison

I am going bye