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Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:22 am
by Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Do you wish to say that Mark, Matthew, Luke and John are nitwits who didn't understand what they wrote?

Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:25 am
by JoeWallack
Ben C. Smith wrote:Okay, Marcan scholars, I am interested in interpretations of the hometown rejection in Mark 6.1-6a:

1 Jesus went out from there and come into His hometown; and His disciples follow Him. 2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? 3 Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

And they took offense at Him. 4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.” 5 And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6a And He wondered at their unbelief.

The first paragraph above seems to be leading in a positive direction. The local boy has come back home a wise and accomplished worker of miracles. Even the listing of his family members does not seem negative in that context.

But then the tables turn, and people are offended with him. Why? What is the offense?

After the listing of relatives, Matthew 13.53-58 adds, "Where then did this man get all these things?" This seems like a not altogether successful attempt to spell out the source of the offense more clearly. Luke 4.16-30 is much more complete here, and gives ample reason for the townspeople to resent Jesus.

Make no mistake: I can think of reasons for the people to be offended at Jesus (jealousy, past rivalries, a sense that Jesus no longer knows his proper place), but without more of a hint from the author such thoughts are really only guesses.

Even more striking to my eye is the following contrast:
  • Where did this man get... such miracles as these performed by His hands?
  • And He could do no miracle there... and He wondered at their unbelief.
But they seem to very much believe that he can do miracles; that is a big part of their astonishment. What exactly do they not believe here?

Thoughts?

Ben.
JW:
I present this as a theory. Suppose "Mark" (author) starts with a theme/conclusion that every natural supposed group in Jesus' supposed setting had a negative reaction to something "Mark" thinks was important about Jesus:

Group Identification Expectation regarding Jesus (one of their own) Opposite result Artistic touch of irony
Disciples Followers of Jesus Abandon Jesus The followers of Jesus run away from him to "save" themselves.
Jewish religious leaders Identify and promote the Messiah to save the Jews Identify and convict the Messiah which convicts the Jews Jewish religious leaders make fun of Jesus not being able to prophesy exactly as his prophecy of Peter's denial is happening right under their long noses
Jesus' family Unconditional support Unconditional opposition They don't want Jesus seen or heard. Who is his real family?
Jesus' hometown Proud of one of their own Embarrassed by one of their own Questioning the work of the carpenter's hands

If you accept that "Mark" starts with a theme here (the why) than the how is secondary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nlBL1xz_gs

You are asking the right questions Ben.


Joseph

The Case Of The Unidentified Servant - Part 1

Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:30 am
by Ulan
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:Do you wish to say that Mark, Matthew, Luke and John are nitwits who didn't understand what they wrote?
No, he says that it doesn't matter what Mark, Matthew, Luke and John allegedly wrote, because they are all 2nd century rewrites from a single precursor gospel that had, instead of the text versions you compare, a flying, supernatural Jesus who came down to his "hometown" Jerusalem. Which easily explains why nobody wanted to listen, because the "home" was all of Israel who rejected the message.

Of course, this depends on accepting that the "supergospel" (Paul's?) that can be found in Justin and Ephrem was really earlier than the others. Which most here probably won't.

Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:36 am
by Secret Alias
Ecco là

Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:39 am
by Ben C. Smith
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
I think the "unbelief" is primarily that God's chosen one is identified as a simple human being
That is not how I read "faith/belief" elsewhere in Mark, at least not in conjunction with miracles:

Mark 2.4-5: 4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying. 5 And Jesus seeing their faith says to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mark 5.30-34: 30 Immediately Jesus, perceiving in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My garments?” 31 And His disciples said to Him, “You see the crowd pressing in on You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’” 32 And He looked around to see the woman who had done this. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, aware of what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth. 34 And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction.”
Mark 10.50-52: 50 Throwing aside his cloak, he jumped up and came to Jesus. 51 And answering him, Jesus said, “What do you want Me to do for you?” And the blind man said to Him, “Rabboni, I want to regain my sight!” 52 And Jesus said to him, “Go; your faith has made you well.” Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him on the road.

In other contexts, he is able to work miracles even while surrounded by disbelief or hostility (Mark 3.5; 4.39-40).

But here? Here the townspeople believe he can do miracles; their astonishment is at how he does them; they do not express doubt that he does them. The start of the pericope looks like another Marcan story of faith leading to healing. And yet, without warning, the pericope turns, and we find Jesus marveling at their disbelief.

Your guess, Kunigunde, at what this disbelief consists of is a good one, maybe even a great one. But I think it is still a guess.

In the parts of John that you quoted, the disbelief is patently obvious. They disbelieve Jesus' unlikely words ("the bread that came down from heaven"). No issue there.

But here, in Mark, the disbelief is specifically mentioned as the reason for Jesus not being able to do (many) miracles; that seems to tie it in to those other Marcan pericopae in which faith is the basis for miracles, but it does not fit in that context very well.

Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:40 am
by Secret Alias
Ulan

They won't acknowledge Marcionit primacy. Fine I don't expect intelligence. But when Criddle says that our prime source against Marcion was develop as a comparison by Justin from a super gospel that doesn't strike them as worth pursuing? That's what baffles me. I expect at least brand name awareness

Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:41 am
by Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Ulan wrote:No, he says that it doesn't matter what Mark, Matthew, Luke and John allegedly wrote, because they are all 2nd century rewrites from a single precursor gospel that had, instead of the text versions you compare, a flying, supernatural Jesus who came down to his "hometown" Jerusalem. Which easily explains why nobody wanted to listen, because the "home" was all of Israel who rejected the message.

Of course, this depends on accepting that the "supergospel" (Paul's?) that can be found in Justin and Ephrem was really earlier than the others. Which most here probably won't.
Fine. An interpretation miles away from the text, even from Marcion's gospel.

Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:49 am
by Ulan
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Ulan wrote:No, he says that it doesn't matter what Mark, Matthew, Luke and John allegedly wrote, because they are all 2nd century rewrites from a single precursor gospel that had, instead of the text versions you compare, a flying, supernatural Jesus who came down to his "hometown" Jerusalem. Which easily explains why nobody wanted to listen, because the "home" was all of Israel who rejected the message.

Of course, this depends on accepting that the "supergospel" (Paul's?) that can be found in Justin and Ephrem was really earlier than the others. Which most here probably won't.
Fine. An interpretation miles away from the text, even from Marcion's gospel.
I give Stephan this point: I don't think that the current reconstructions of Marcion's gospel hold any water. See Ephrem. We also have Justin as witness that things are not as they are usually depicted. Even Tertullian mixes things in a way that are not compatible with our current model. These points are usually explained away as "mistakes".

Still, the dating question is not proven. But that's mostly due to the complete lack of evidence.

Edit: I guess I should put it less wishywashy: Stephan suggested the Marcionite reading as witnessed by Ephrem.

Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:52 am
by Giuseppe
What do you think about the point behind Jesus being son of Joseph?

A possible answer: they reject Jesus because they think him to be the failed Messiah ben Joseph. A messiah who HAS to die to realize his goal. Therefore, a messiah who is to be despisable by definition.

Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:57 am
by Giuseppe
In other terms, the enemies of Jesus knew already the end of the story: that Jesus had to die to rise. Therefore their function in the story is uniquely to show hostility against Jesus.