This is an interesting aspect of the whole story. Personally, I think the churches should have just kept the LXX as base of the OT. For questions of belief, this would have been a much easier and clearer solution. This is where basing religion on history becomes a bit of an albatross around the neck, both for believers and for historians.Ben C. Smith wrote:It still happens today: conservative versions of the Bible include textually dubious verses and maintain linguistically dubious translations; this protects the average churchgoer from having constantly to think through the implications, say, of finding 'young woman" in Isaiah 7.14 where one might have expected "virgin". What in our time comes across as selecting from an array of textual or translational possibilities may well in future centuries look more like making small changes to the original text.
Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
-
Secret Alias
- Posts: 21154
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
The (potential) survival of the super gospel visit of Jesus to 'Wisdom' in the temple after a descent from heaven. Some interesting facts for people who are interested in new things. Let's start with a well known text - the Quran. It preserves a term mihrab which seems in some contexts to refer specifically to a sanctuary within a temple, rather than to the temple in general. The passages are:
Now let us ask the question - could the Qur'an have made such a gross error to specifically reference a sanctuary within the temple? According to the Talmud, and the Jewish tradition in general, no woman was allowed into the Inner Court, not the least inside the temple proper (hekel) (cf. Ber. 3, Ned. 11). Could Q. 3:37 be referring to the Holy of Holies, as it was accessed once a year by the High Priest -both kohen and male?
In the passage Q 3:36-39 the word miḥrāb is mentioned twice, first where Zachariah runs into Mary with the child (v.37), and second when the angels appear to him while praying (v.39). According to the biblical tradition, Zachariah would have been praying inside the temple itself by the Alter of Incense (the other being the Alter of Burned Offering, cf. Luke 1:8-11; also Exodus 30:1-10, 39:38; Numbers 4:11). See the outline of Herod's temple.
Now according to the apocryphal Protoevangelium of James, Mary's supposed mother, Anna, who was barren, gave the child to service as a consecrated virgin in the Temple in Jerusalem when she was three years old, much like Hannah took Samuel to the Tabernacle as recorded in the Tanakh (1 Samuel 1-2). If that passage has any merit, Mary would have lived and served in the Outer Court (or Women's Hall). The Protoevangelium may have simply lifted that story from 1 Samuel, as to draw a connection between David and Jesus (with both Samuel and Mary bringing about the Messiah). The author of the Protoevangelium also mentions certain Jewish customs that probably did not exist (e.g. the existence of consecrated temple virgins, akin to the Vestal virgins of Rome). This could be one of the reasons that the church considered the gospel of James apocryphal!
Coming back to the Qur'anic text: If we stay away from the revisionist interpretation that the author(s) of the Qur'an was/were drawing on available sources concerning the infancy life of Mary without much understanding or knowledge of Jewish traditions and temple life, we could safely assume that the Qur'an uses the word miḥrāb to refer to the temple generically (Outer and Inner Courts with Temple proper). The same way of writing is used in the New Testament: Mary and Joseph found Jesus "in the temple" talking with the teachers (Luke 2:46), which may have been in the Outer Court where most of Jesus' Temple teachings took place. Also Matthew 21:12 recounts Jesus going "into the temple" and driving out merchants and overturning the tables of the money changers; merchants and money changers would have occupied the Court of Gentiles, in the outer grounds of the temple.
But this seems unlikely to me. The Qur'an is clearly drawing from the Protoevangelium (or its source) and the Protoevangelium is trying to make a theological point when it says that the virgin Mary grew up in the Holy of Holies, rather than in the outer court (it says so explicitly: "And Joseph stood up from the sackcloth, and called Mary, and said to her: O thou who hast been cared for by God, why hast thou done this and forgotten the Lord thy God? Why hast thou brought low thy soul, thou that wast brought up in the holy of holies, and that didst receive food from the hand of an angel?").
I don't think the author of the Protoevangelium was necessarily ignorant of the Jewish tradition and was thus committing a historical blunder. To the contrary, I think the author was perfectly clear about the fact that only the High Priest was ever allowed into the Holy of Holies (and that only on the Day of the Atonement). The point he is trying to make is that DESPITE THAT, MIRACULOUSLY, the Virgin Mary was allowed in there and grew up there (presumably because Zachariah was inspired by the Holy Spirit to take her in there). (Just as when other Gospel writers argued that she was able to miraculously conceive while being a virgin, they were not ignorant, of course, that this would not be the habit of nature...)
The theological point the Protoevangelium is trying to make, I think, is that by growing up in the (Old-Testament) Holy of Holies, the Virgin Mary has now become the New Holy of Holies in which God the Word would dwell.
This is in fact how the significance of the event is interpreted in Orthodox church hymns on the feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple, e.g.:
So I think the Qur'an was familiar with this tradition (whether from the Gospel of James directly or from other sources), and thus the term "mihrab" in the Mary / Zachariah passages might well refer specifically to the Holy of Holies (even if that is odds with the Jewish tradition). I don't think that's a revisionist argument. I believe the Qur'an expected its audience to be familiar with these kinds of traditional Christian stories and interpretations and it thus alludes to them.
On the term mīḥrāb we may notice that according to Ibn 'Ashūr in Tafsīr al-Taḥrīr wa al-Tanūīr vol. 3 p. 237:
To this end I should bring forward now the long passage from the John Book of the Mandaeans which I think goes back to the heretical gospels of the Christians. The section reads:
In the last case we are standing in front of the beth saida = 'house of demons' from the Proverbs of Solomon which is preserved in a wide variety of traditions.Q. 3:37 [God providing for Mary in the miḥrāb, i.e. the Holy of Holies]; 38:21 [two rivals entering the miḥrāb to present their case to David; cf. 2 Sam. 12]; 3:39 [Zakariah is praying in the miḥrāb to have a son, and the angels tell him about John]; 19:11 [Zakariah is coming out of the miḥrāb to speak to the people in signs]; 34:13 [the jinn make maḥārīb for Solomon]
Now let us ask the question - could the Qur'an have made such a gross error to specifically reference a sanctuary within the temple? According to the Talmud, and the Jewish tradition in general, no woman was allowed into the Inner Court, not the least inside the temple proper (hekel) (cf. Ber. 3, Ned. 11). Could Q. 3:37 be referring to the Holy of Holies, as it was accessed once a year by the High Priest -both kohen and male?
In the passage Q 3:36-39 the word miḥrāb is mentioned twice, first where Zachariah runs into Mary with the child (v.37), and second when the angels appear to him while praying (v.39). According to the biblical tradition, Zachariah would have been praying inside the temple itself by the Alter of Incense (the other being the Alter of Burned Offering, cf. Luke 1:8-11; also Exodus 30:1-10, 39:38; Numbers 4:11). See the outline of Herod's temple.
Now according to the apocryphal Protoevangelium of James, Mary's supposed mother, Anna, who was barren, gave the child to service as a consecrated virgin in the Temple in Jerusalem when she was three years old, much like Hannah took Samuel to the Tabernacle as recorded in the Tanakh (1 Samuel 1-2). If that passage has any merit, Mary would have lived and served in the Outer Court (or Women's Hall). The Protoevangelium may have simply lifted that story from 1 Samuel, as to draw a connection between David and Jesus (with both Samuel and Mary bringing about the Messiah). The author of the Protoevangelium also mentions certain Jewish customs that probably did not exist (e.g. the existence of consecrated temple virgins, akin to the Vestal virgins of Rome). This could be one of the reasons that the church considered the gospel of James apocryphal!
Coming back to the Qur'anic text: If we stay away from the revisionist interpretation that the author(s) of the Qur'an was/were drawing on available sources concerning the infancy life of Mary without much understanding or knowledge of Jewish traditions and temple life, we could safely assume that the Qur'an uses the word miḥrāb to refer to the temple generically (Outer and Inner Courts with Temple proper). The same way of writing is used in the New Testament: Mary and Joseph found Jesus "in the temple" talking with the teachers (Luke 2:46), which may have been in the Outer Court where most of Jesus' Temple teachings took place. Also Matthew 21:12 recounts Jesus going "into the temple" and driving out merchants and overturning the tables of the money changers; merchants and money changers would have occupied the Court of Gentiles, in the outer grounds of the temple.
But this seems unlikely to me. The Qur'an is clearly drawing from the Protoevangelium (or its source) and the Protoevangelium is trying to make a theological point when it says that the virgin Mary grew up in the Holy of Holies, rather than in the outer court (it says so explicitly: "And Joseph stood up from the sackcloth, and called Mary, and said to her: O thou who hast been cared for by God, why hast thou done this and forgotten the Lord thy God? Why hast thou brought low thy soul, thou that wast brought up in the holy of holies, and that didst receive food from the hand of an angel?").
I don't think the author of the Protoevangelium was necessarily ignorant of the Jewish tradition and was thus committing a historical blunder. To the contrary, I think the author was perfectly clear about the fact that only the High Priest was ever allowed into the Holy of Holies (and that only on the Day of the Atonement). The point he is trying to make is that DESPITE THAT, MIRACULOUSLY, the Virgin Mary was allowed in there and grew up there (presumably because Zachariah was inspired by the Holy Spirit to take her in there). (Just as when other Gospel writers argued that she was able to miraculously conceive while being a virgin, they were not ignorant, of course, that this would not be the habit of nature...)
The theological point the Protoevangelium is trying to make, I think, is that by growing up in the (Old-Testament) Holy of Holies, the Virgin Mary has now become the New Holy of Holies in which God the Word would dwell.
This is in fact how the significance of the event is interpreted in Orthodox church hymns on the feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple, e.g.:
"Into the Holy of holies / is the holy and immaculate one / led by the Holy Spirit; / and she is fed by a holy angel, / in that she is the most holy temple / of our holy God, / Who hath sanctified all things by her entry / and hath deified the nature of mortal men // which had fallen."
So I think the Qur'an was familiar with this tradition (whether from the Gospel of James directly or from other sources), and thus the term "mihrab" in the Mary / Zachariah passages might well refer specifically to the Holy of Holies (even if that is odds with the Jewish tradition). I don't think that's a revisionist argument. I believe the Qur'an expected its audience to be familiar with these kinds of traditional Christian stories and interpretations and it thus alludes to them.
On the term mīḥrāb we may notice that according to Ibn 'Ashūr in Tafsīr al-Taḥrīr wa al-Tanūīr vol. 3 p. 237:
Also, may I bring to your attention the Arabic meaning of Raheb (monk) which could mean "fearer". It seems like there was some monastic traditions going around during this period which suggest God fearing people living in isolation to battle the devil. This might take us to an older tradition where the story of Mary or Wisdom living in the temple becomes the prototype of the monk or bride of Christ. This would suggest that the woman was not as much his mother in the earliest strata of the tradition but the gnostic Wisdom who is redeemed by Jesus.it is said: that the mīḥrāb is derived from war (ḥarb), because the worshiper inside it was in a war like with the devil, it is like they made that place a tool to wage war on the devil.
To this end I should bring forward now the long passage from the John Book of the Mandaeans which I think goes back to the heretical gospels of the Christians. The section reads:
In the Name of Great Life, may hallowed Light be glorified
Miryai am I, of the Kings al Babel, a daughter, a daughter of Jerusalem's mighty rulers. They have given me birth: the priests brought me up. In the fold of their robe they carried me up into the dark house, into the temple. Adonai laid a charge on my hands and on my two arms: I must scour and cleanse the house [that isl without firmness- There is naught therein for supporting the poor, naught to revive the tormented souls.
My father went to the house of the people, my mother vent to the temple. My father went out and said to me, and my mother went out and charged me: " Miryai, close thy inner doors and bolt the bar. See that thou goest not forth into the main streets and that the suns of my Lord' fall not upon thee."
But I, Mirayi, listened not to what my mother did tell me, and hardened not with the ear to what my father did charge me. I opened the inner doors and the outer let I stand open. Out vent I into the main streets and the suns of my Lord fell upon me. To the house of the people would I not go, but my way bore me onto the temple (of the Mandaeans). I went and I found my brothers and sisters, how they stand and carry on proclamations. My brothers carry on proclamations and my sisters throw out explanations. With the voice of their proclamations and with the voice of their explanations I became drowsy and laid me down on the spot.
My brothers went forth and did not wake me, and my sisters withdrew and roused me not. But thou, my sister in Truth, dost rouse me from sleep, and dost say: " Arise, arise, Miryai, before the day breaks nod the cock lets crow his morn-call, before the sun shines and his glory rises over the worlds, before the priests and the priests' sons go forth and sit them down in the shade of the Ruins--Jerusalem, before thy father comes and brings upset upon thee such as thou never hast had".
I, Miryai, keep secret my prayers and utterly secret keep my discourses.
Early, day began to dawn, early the cock let crow his call, early- the sun shone and his glory rose over the worlds. The priests and priest's sons went out and sat them down in the shade of the Ruins--Jerusalem. Then came my bodily father and brought on me upset such as I never hare had.
He spake:
"Where host come from, thou debauched trough, whom (locks?) and bars (cannot keep in)? Where host thou come from? Woe (unto thee) thou b**** in heat, who (mindest?) not (door-) pins and lockings! Where hast thou come from? Woe, woe (unto thee) thou bit of coarse stuff that has been patched on my robe!"
"If I am a debauched trough, I will burst thy (boltings) and bars. If I am a b***** in heat, I will draw back the pins and the lockings. If I am a bit of coarse stuff that has been patched on thy robe, then out of thy robe cut and rip me"
Thereon he cried:
" Come (pl), look on Miryai, who has left Jewry and gone to make love with her lord. Came, look on Miryai, who has left off coloured raiment and gone to make love with her lord. She forsook gold and silver and went to make love with her lord. She forsook the phylacteries and went to make love with the man with the head-band."
Then Miryai makes answer onto him:
" Far lies it from me to love him whom I hare hated. Far lies it from me to hate him whom I hare loved. Nay, far from me lies it to hate my Lord, the Life's Gnosis, who is for me in the world a support, a support is he in the world for me and a helper in the Light's region. Dust in the mouth of the Jews, ashes in the mouth of all of the priests! May the dung that is under the feet of the horses, come on the high ones and Jerusalem's mighty rulers."
Life is exalted and is victorious, and victorious is the Man who has come hither.
* a variant from the Oxford Manuscript of the story *
In the name of Great Life, may hallowed Light be glorified.
At the door of the house of the people her mother came upon Miryai. Her mother came upon Miryai and put question to her: "Whence com'st thou, my daughter, Miryai, whose face gathers roses? Roses gathers thy face and of sleep are thy eyes full. Full of sleep are thy eyes, and upon thy forehead lies slumber."
Thereon she made answer:: "It is two,--three days today that my brothers sat down in the house of my Father. In my Father's house sat down my brothers and let wonderful proclamations be heard. Because of the voice and the ringing of the proclamation of the treasures, my brothers, there comes no sleep over my eyes. Sleep comes not over my eyes, nor slumber upon my forehead."
" Hast thou not heard, Miryai, my daughter, what the Jews are saying about thee. The Jews are saying: Thy daughter has fallen in love With a man. She has gotten hate against Jewry and lovefor Nazoraeanity. Hate has she gotten against the house of the people and love for the door of the temple. Hate has she gotten against the phylacteries and lore for the daunting wreaths. Work does she on Sabbath, on Sunday she keeps her hands still. Miryai has cast aside straightway the Law that the Seven have laid (upon us)."
As Miryai stands there, she puts dust on her feet, and speaks: "Dust in the mouth of the Jews and ashes in the mouth of all of the priests! May the dung that lies under the horses, come on the elders who are in Jerusalem! I cannot hate him whose love I have won, nor love him 'gainst whom I have gotten hate. Yea, I have won the love of my Lord the Life's Gnosis, (and hope) that in him a helper will for me arise, a helper and a support from the region of Darkness unto Light's region."
Thou hast won the victory, Gnosis of Life, and helped all thy friends to victory.
* variant from the Oxford Manuscript ends *
In the Name of Great Life, may hollowed Light be gloried.
Miryai am I, a vine, a tree, who stands at the mouth of Euphrates (Frash). The tree's leaves are precions stones, the tree's fruits pearls. The vine-tree's foliage is glory, its shoots precious light. Among the trees its scent it diffuses, and it spreads over all the worlds. The birds of the air scented it; a flock settled down on the tree. A flock on it down-settled, and they would build their nest there. They flutter about in it and settle not down in it firmly. Of its foliage they eat …from its inner part they drink wine. They eat what is not to be cast away, and drink what was not wine.
While the birds sat on the vine, winds and tempests broke loose. They shook the good birdlets awake, they smote 'gainst the tree: on all sides they scattered the leaves of the vine-tree and scared the birds out of their place, Many a bird there was who flew not away, but held on fast with claws and with wings, till the winds and the tempests were over. Many again held not on fast and were hurried away….Woe unto those who did not hold fast, but were dashed from the tree and flew off. How fair is the tree of Life and fair the birds who dwell on it !
The winds and the tempests passed and rest came over the world.
As the birds sit there and chirp and would be a-building their nest, as the birds sit on the vine, an eagle wheeled and flew hither. A white eagle-bird came, looked down and caught sight of the birds. Round wheeled he, sped down on them with his wings, and came and sat on the tree. In converse with him joined the birds, and said to him.
"By thy Life, Eagle! On this tree were we birds without number.---But there broke loose against them the winds, and on the tree came raging tempests. They shook them off, from the tree, so that they tore their wings from them (nearly). Many a one held fast, whom the winds and tempests could not tear away: but many a one flew off at top speed---We speak to thee, therefore O Eagle, we ask thee respecting the birds, because thou art sharp of sight and dost see all in this world: What have the winds and the tempests done with those birds, our brothers? What spyest thou out (?) over them? "
Then made be answer unto them: "You had better not to have known, my brothers, what has become of those birds. Sling-shots drove them far from me, their wings broke: torn off were they, broken off; the), they went hence and relied on the bird-catcher's. The harrier and hawk wheeled round them, tore pieces out of their flesh and fed on those who were fat. Woe to those who fell prey to the water: if there was no portion for them at the crossing. Well for you, ye birds, who bald fast to this vine (here): you become a, companionship of Miryai the vine, who stands at the mouth of Euphrates. See and satisfy yourselves, ye birds, that I have come to you. I have come to my brothers to be a support for them in this world. I have come to heal Miryai (come) to bring mater to the good, beloved plants, to the vines, who stand at the mouth of Euphrates. In a white pail I draw water and bring it to my plants. I bear and I hold (it) on the arms of glory which are my own. I bear and I hold (it) and give (them) to drink. Well for him who has drunk of my mater. He drinks, finds healing and confirmation, and grows to double (his stature). The vines who drank water, brought forth good fruit. Their leaves turned on high and made a brave show. The branches, which drank no water, brought forth bitter herbs and wormwood (?). Woe to those who have not gone forward upon the Way; woe to those who here not passed on by the way-stone! They hated Life's Treasure-House: Miryai, the dear Truth.
" My brothers, hold fast, be a companionship of Miryai. I will look round in the world, let Life's call sound forth and rouse the sleeping and make [them]."
The eagle flew off from the tree: he wheeled round and instructed his friends. He speaks to them: "Give ear to me, my brothers! Stay fast and endure persecution. Be a companionship to Miryai. Woe to the Jews, who were a persecution for Miryai. Woe to Elizar, the great house, the pillar that props the temple. Woe to Zatan, the pillar,' who has witnessed lies against Miryai!
All the Jews gathered together, the teachers, the great and
the little; they came [togetherl and spake of Miryai:
" She ran away from the priests, fell in lore with a man, and they took hold of each other's bands. Hold of each other's hands they took, went forth and settled at the mouth of Euphrates. We will slay them and make Miryai scorned in Jerusalem. A stake will we set up for the man who has ruined Miryai and led her away. There shall be no day in the world when a stranger enters Jerusalem."
They split open their fellings and catch the doves in Jerusalem.
All the Jews gathered together and followed after Miryai. They went and found that a throne was set up for Miryai on the bank of Euphrates. A white standard was for her unfurled and a book stood upright on her lap. She reads in the Books of Truth and rouses all worlds from their sleep. She holds in her hand the staff of Life's water, the girdle is bound round her loins. Miryai in humbleness prays and proclaims with wondrous voice. The fishes gather out of the sea, the birds' from the mouth of Euphrates. They come to hear Miryai's voice and no more long to lie down to sleep. They breathe in the sweet scent around her and forget the world.
When the Jews saw this, they stood up before her. They felt shamed, doubled their fists, smote on the fore-court of their breast and lamented. The mother of Miryai spake, and tears streamed into her bosom.
"Look on me, Miryai, my daughter," says she unto her; "look on me who am thy mother! My daughter art thou and the daughter of all of the priests. Thy head is the great chief of the temple. Rememberest thou not, Miryai, that the Torah lay on thy lap? Thou didst open it, read therein and knewest what stands in it. The outer keys lay in thy hands, and the inner thou didst put in chains. All the priests and priests' sons came and kissed thy hand. Far whom thou wouldst, thou didst open the door: whom thou wouldst not, must turn and go hack to his seat. A thousand stand there and two thousand sit there. They submit themselves to thee, as a eunuch-made slave, and they give ear to thy word in Jerusalem. Why didst thou forget thy brothers and thy heart abandon the priests? Lo, the brides weep in Judea, the women and men in Jerusalem. Their beloved gold have they cast from them, end they give themselves up to wailing and mourning for thee. They say: 'We will make away with our goods, until Miryai returns. Gold forge we (? no longer), and cast away fair raiments of silk and bracelets (?). They stand on the roofs and look out, that they may see thee again in Jerusalem. For thee they make vows, if thou comest to me and we go hence. My daughter, arise, come back to thy dwelling-place the city Jerusalem. Come, light up thy lamps which have been put out from the day when thou with drewest thysellf.' Have no longing after this man, who has prisoned thee and taken thee off. Leave the man, mho is not of thy dwelling place alone by himself in the world. Let him not say: I have gone and carried off Miryai from her place· Come, teach the chidren, so that they may learn. Lay the Torah in thy lap and let us hear thy voice as it used to be. From the moment and the day when thou didst detach the dough has it been covered up…"
When Miryai heard this from her mother, she laughed and rejoiced in her mind: " It surely could not be the Jews," says she unto her, " the infamous, worthless priests! It surely would not be the Jews who stand there and bow damn to a brick grave! They shall be buried in the Darkness.
" Go, go," says she unto them, " ye fools, ye abortions: ye who were not of the world." I am no woman who is stripped for wantoning: and it is not that I have fallen in love with a man. Stripped am I not for returning to you and for again seeing you, doming of blasphemy. Go, go hence from me, ye who have witnessed falsehood and lying against me. Against me ye witnessed wantonness and thieving, and held me up as ye are yourselves. Blessed be the Man who freed me front my fetters and planted my feet here. No wantonness have I committed with him and attempted no theft in the world. Instead of the witness ye have witnessed against me, there came to me prayer and praise giving."
As the priests stand there and speak with Maryai at the mouth of Euphrates, there came a pure eagle-bird, whose wings are the fullness of worlds. He flew down on the Jews, dashed at them with his wings, bound them and sank them down unto the water's bottom, deeper [down] than the foul-smelling mud. He sank them deeper down than the blazing [water] that is inside the dark water. He sank their ships down to the blazing water's bottom. He destroyed the temple and laid fire to Jerusalem.
He brought downfall upon them and in Jerusalem slew the disciples.
He descended unto her (Miryai), folded before her his wings, settled down by her, narrated and proclaimed to her, and they held out the loved hand of Truth to each other. He embraced her in potent embracing, forced her down and set her on the throne.
"Miryai," he speaks to her, "with favor look upon me, remember me in the Life's presence. I am thy Good Messenger, the Man, who gives ear to thy discourse. I beseech thee for the high Truth, the Truth which the Jordans have chosen."
" O Good Treasure," she makes answer unto him, "Treasure whom Life has sent! Thy glory and thy light has risen upon us, and thy honor is approved in Light's region. Everyone who gives ear to thy voice, will be in the pure region included. In Life's Treasury will he be included and thy rays will rise (over him) twofold. For everyone who gives not ear to thy voice, making and sleep will be wiped out. Let him belong to the Jews, to the slaves and all of the priests, the sons of the Harlot. I and thou will circle aloft and victorious mount to Light's region."
May Life be our pledge, and Life is victorious
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
-
Secret Alias
- Posts: 21154
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Again we have all these texts - the Proto-Evangelium, the Quran, the John Book. They aren't 'theoretical' like the Marcionite gospel reconstruction. They all seem related to a lost gospel story of Jesus visiting Wisdom in an attempt to redeem her from her Fall and the origin of the world, the cornerstone of the heretical world view and the gnostics are given LOTS AND LOTS of attention in the earliest writings of Christianity (especially in the variant preserved among the Mandaeans). If on the one hand, as most scholars concede the visit to the Canaanite woman is based on Psalm 68 and these very words are put in the mouth of Jesus when he visits the temple in John 2:19, and on the other both Ephrem and Tertullian's source understand that the Canaanite woman narrative was already in the minds of the 'Israelites' who rejected Jesus in the synagogue/temple why isn't it likely that various traditions 'remember' Jesus coming to 'beth saida' = the house of demons to redeem fallen Wisdom? This sets up the ridicule that follows (viz. 'your mother and brothers stand outside') because the Jews find his Quixotic obsession with this pushy woman to be proof of his insanity (she isn't fallen Wisdom but likely a whore in some form). The rejection by temple goers would help explain why the story had to be relocated into Jesus's 'hometown' - i.e. because the temple was the 'Jewish home' and presumably it was argued that Jesus was a stranger. The questions which arise in the Capernaum narrative from Tertullian about how Jesus could get into a Jewish establishment still stand. But remember this heavenly being can pass through crowds. So why would the wall of a building be able to hold him back?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
-
Secret Alias
- Posts: 21154
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Of course my supposition would be that our gospels are FAR REMOVED reconstructions from a mythical gospel narrative. But isn't that the direction all modern research is taking anyway?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
-
Secret Alias
- Posts: 21154
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
One last diversion. The equation of 'beth saida' with the temple in Jerusalem. The standard Jewish explanation of Eccelsiasticus 2:8:
The reader will have to excuse the terse language of the Talmud. That's just the way the rabbinic texts are. We jump right into a discussion of the disputed terminology:
'
Gittin 68 a - b attempts to explain what the hell this means. The passage is usually translated into English as:I got me sharim and sharoth, and the delights of the sons of men, shidah (שידה) and shidoth (וְשִׁדּוֹת) [Eccel 2.8]
But as we will see from the gemara שידה is placed within the context of Solomon building the Jewish temple with the aid of demons.I acquired male and female singers, and a harem as well—the delights of a man’s heart
The reader will have to excuse the terse language of the Talmud. That's just the way the rabbinic texts are. We jump right into a discussion of the disputed terminology:
'
Let's recap what is being said here. The story about Solomon using demons develops out of a discussion of what the term שידה means. The answer is clearly that they are the demons associated with Solomon's building of the temple. The demons were not only captured to build the temple but also to live there. The temple was thus a 'demon house' = בית שידה although the term is never explicitly used. The understanding was clearly preserved in Christian heretical sources because it is known to the Nag Hammadi treatise the True Testimony.Sharim and Sharoth', means diverse kinds of music; 'the delights of the sons of men' are ornamental pools and baths. 'Shidah and shidoth': Here [in the school of Babylon] they translate as male and female demons. In the West [i.e. the school of Tiberias] they say [it means] carriages.
R. Johanan said: There were three hundred kinds of demons in Shihin, but what a shidah is I do not know (or alternatively "'the real mother of the demons I do not know").
The Master said: Here they translate 'male and female demons'. For what did Solomon want them? — As indicated in the verse, And the house when it was in building was made of stone made ready at the quarry, [there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house while it was in building];[I Kings VI, 7] He said to the Rabbis, How shall I manage [without iron tools]? — They replied, There is the shamir [i.e. a fabulous worm which could cut through the strongest stone] which Moses brought for the stones of the ephod. He asked them, Where is it to be found? — They replied, Bring a male and a female demon and tie them together; perhaps they know and will tell you. So he brought a male and a female demon and tied them together. They said to him, We do not know, but perhaps Ashmedai the prince of the demons knows. He said to them, Where is he? — They answered, He is in such-and-such a mountain. He has dug a pit there, which he fills with water and covers with a stone, which he then seals with his seal. Every day he goes up to heaven and studies in the Academy of the sky and then he comes down to earth and studies in the Academy of the earth, and then he goes and examines his seal and opens [the pit] and drinks and then closes it and seals it again and goes away. Solomon thereupon sent thither Benaiahu son of Jehoiada, giving him a chain on which was graven the [Divine] Name and a ring on which was graven the Name and fleeces of wool and bottles of wine. Benaiahu went and dug a pit lower down the hill and let the water flow into it [i.e. from Ashmedai's pit by means of a tunnel connecting the two] and stopped [the hollow] With the fleeces of wool, and he then dug a pit higher up and poured the wine into it [i.e. so that it should flow into Ashmedai's pit. and then filled up the pits]. He then went and sat on a tree.
When Ashmedai came he examined the seal, then opened the pit and found it full of wine. He said, it is written, Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whosoever erreth thereby is not wise, [Prov. XX, 1] and it is also written, Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the understanding. [Hos, IV, 11] I will not drink it. Growing thirsty, however, he could not resist, and he drank till he became drunk, and fell asleep. Benaiahu then came down and threw the chain over him and fastened it. When he awoke he began to struggle, whereupon he [Benaiahu] said, The Name of thy Master is upon thee, the Name of thy Master is upon thee. As he was bringing him along, he came to a palm tree and rubbed against it and down it came. He came to a house and knocked it down. He came to the hut of a certain widow. She came out and besought him, and he bent down so as not to touch it, thereby breaking a bone. He said, That bears out the verse, A soft tongue breaketh the bone [Prov. XXV, 15]. He saw a blind man straying from his way and he put him on the right path. He saw a drunken man losing his way and he put him on his path. He saw a wedding procession making its way merrily and he wept. He heard a man say to a shoemaker, Make me a pair of shoes that will last seven years, and he laughed. He saw a diviner practising divinations and he laughed. When they reached Jerusalem he was not taken to see Solomon for three days. On the first day he asked, Why does the king not want to see me? They replied, Because he has overdrunk himself. So he took a brick and placed it on top of another. When they reported this to Solomon he said to them, What he meant to tell you was, Give him more to drink. On the next day he said to them, Why does the king not want to see me? They replied, Because he has over-eaten himself. He thereupon took one brick from off the other and placed it on the ground. When they reported this to Solomon, he said, He meant to tell you to keep food away from me. After three days he went in to see him. He took a reed and measured four cubits and threw it in front of him, saying, See now, when you die you will have no more than four cubits in this world. Now, however, you have subdued the whole world, yet you are not satisfied till you subdue me too. He replied: I want nothing of you. What I want is to build the Temple and I require the shamir. He said: It is not in my hands, it is in the hands of the Prince of the Sea who gives it only to the woodpecker, [lit., 'Cock of the prairie'] to whom he trusts it on oath. What does the bird do with it? — He takes it to a mountain where there is no cultivation and puts it on the edge of the rock which thereupon splits, and he then takes seeds from trees and brings them and throws them into the opening and things grow there. (This is what the Targum means by nagar tura). [lit., 'One that saws the rock': the rendering in Targum Onkelos of the Hebrew [H] generally rendered by hoopoe; Lev. XI, 19.] So they found out a woodpecker's nest with young in it, and covered it over with white glass. When the bird came it wanted to get in but could not, so it went and brought the shamir and placed it on the glass. Benaiahu thereupon gave a shout, and it dropped [the shamir] and he took it, and the bird went and committed suicide on account of its oath.
Benaiahu said to Ashmedai, Why when you saw that blind man going out of his way did you put him right? He replied: It has been proclaimed of him in heaven that he is a wholly righteous man, and that whoever does him a kindness will be worthy of the future world. And why when you saw the drunken man going out of his way did you put him right? He replied, They have proclaimed concerning him in heaven that he is wholly wicked, and I conferred a boon on him in order that he may consume [here] his share [in the future = that there may remain no share for him to enjoy in the hereafter]. Why when you saw the wedding procession did you weep? He said: The husband will die within thirty days, and she will have to wait for the brother-in-law who is still a child of thirteen years. [i.e.before he can give her halizah (v. Glos.) and enable her to marry again] Why, when you heard a man say to the shoemaker, Make me shoes to last seven years, did you laugh? He replied: That man has not seven days to live, and he wants shoes for seven years! Why when you saw that diviner divining did you laugh? He said: He was sitting on a royal treasure: he should have divined what was beneath him.
Solomon kept him with him until he had built the Temple. One day when he was alone with him, he said, it is written, He hath as it were to'afoth and re'em,6 and we explain that to'afoth means the ministering angels and re'em means the demons.7 What is your superiority over us?8 He said to him, Take the chain off me and give me your ring, and I will show you. So he took the chain off him and gave him the ring. He then swallowed him,9 and placing one wing on the earth and one on the sky he hurled him four hundred parasangs. In reference to that incident Solomon said, What profit is there to a man in all his labour wherein he laboureth under the sun.10
And this was my portion from all my labour.11 What is referred to by 'this'? — Rab and Samuel gave different answers, one saying that it meant his staff and the other that it meant his apron.12 He used to go round begging, saying wherever he went, I Koheleth was king over Israel in Jerusalem.13 When he came to the Sanhedrin, the Rabbis said: Let us see, a madman does not stick to one thing only.14 What is the meaning of this? They asked Benaiahu, Does the king send for you? He replied, No. They sent to the queens saying, Does the king visit you? They sent back word, Yes, he does. They then sent to them to say, Examine his leg.15 They sent back to say, He comes in stockings, and he visits them in the time of their separation and he also calls for Bathsheba his mother. They then sent for Solomon and gave him the chain and the ring on which the Name was engraved. When he went in, Ashmedai on catching sight of him flew away, but he remained in fear of him, therefore is it written, Behold it is the litter of Solomon, threescore mighty met, are about it of the mighty men of Israel. They all handle the sword and are expert in war, every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.16
Rab and Samuel differed [about Solomon]. One said that Solomon was first a king and then a commoner,17 and the other that he was first a king and then a commoner and then a king again.
6. Num. XXIV, 8. E.V., 'the strength of a wild ox'.
7. So Targum Onkelos.
8. That you should be a standard of comparison for Israel.
9. Al. 'it' (the ring).
10. Eccl. I, 3.
11. Ibid. II, 10.
12. Al. 'his platter', v. Sanh. (Sonc. ed.) p. 110 and notes.
13. Ibid. I, 12.
14. I.e., if Solomon were mad, he would show it by other things as well.
15. Because a demon's legs are like those of a cock, v. Ber. 6a.
16. Cant. III, 7, 8.
17. That is to say, that though he was restored to his kingdom, he did not rule over the unseen world as formerly, v. Sanh. loc. cit.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
-
Secret Alias
- Posts: 21154
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
The final difficulty is reconciling this story with the Samaritan woman narrative which is closely related. But there is promise. The Samaritan woman's name according to tradition is Photine/Photini/Photina = the luminous one, from φως. Another name of a supernatural being.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
From SA today, "Not the usual nonsense"
-
Secret Alias
- Posts: 21154
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
So I provided some unusual nonsense.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Ulan wrote:It's a single word, and scribes seemed to have problems with "Nazarene" or "Nazaraios". .
Do you deny it has the possibility for dual usage ?
Re: Why was Jesus rejected in his hometown?
Is that question supposed to mean anything? The evidence in gMark points against "Nazarene" referring to a place, because of the way the word is used. As for the topic question, it doesn't matter one bit, as gMark doesn't identify what town is referred to in 6.1. It's obviously a larger town, as it's contrasted with villages.outhouse wrote:Do you deny it has the possibility for dual usage ?Ulan wrote:It's a single word, and scribes seemed to have problems with "Nazarene" or "Nazaraios". .
Note further that he is going to his hometown, literally his "father's town" (πατρίδα). gMark doesn't know of Joseph or any other father than God.
Last edited by Ulan on Thu May 12, 2016 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.