Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Bernard Muller wrote:


But certainly not years as you suggested on this thread.


.

Cordially, Bernard

provided as much as you attribute to him, how long do you think it takes to learn enough Judaism to take over an apocalyptic movement?

do you think someone just walks in and takes over Johns work?


Or would it be Johns right hand?

Adam wrote: We know of no one else who so influenced Jesus as mentor;

Thank you Adam.


That in itself is strong evidence, those who deny this cannot address or refute.

The Jesus character did not pull his teaching out of a hat, but placing John as the baptizer does give evidence of who he followed.

Both died for their cause.

Both taught apocalyptic Aramaic Judaism.

Both are recorded as being in front of the most political figures in their time.


To throw away the connection, means your in the wrong hobby.

Clive wrote:
But are these all not classic scenes from life, as would be found in plays?

Yes. This is how they were trained to write.

I go against academia here, but I find very little of the text even able to be attributed to remote possibilities. I am a minimalist in this respect.

So what is the class of this Jesus? He could actually be a senior eunuch slave in a very wealthy household possibly of the groom, or the groom. Not a lower class lad helping with some labouring.

This is heavily debated, despite my certainty.


There is no evidence for what you speak of. But there is evidence based on Nazareth for one, and tekton for the other as well as fishermen followers. Plus parables that match agrarian suffering under oppression of the typical low life peasant.

The socioeconomics wont be settled anytime soon. But even in rich Hellenistic centers we still find Harris lines in the bones of children, as well as evidence for disease is all classes, to the likes most modern man cannot comprehend the constant death that followed all.

MrMacSon wrote:

Bernard Muller wrote:

We do know he was supposed to be baptized by John which does make him a student of Johns.

Even if Jesus was baptized by John, that does not make him a student of John (however I think he stayed around John, with others, for a few months).

According to Luke 1 Jesus & John were related - their mothers were cousins.

That's a good point, but I believe it is rhetorical in nature.

Could have been something picked up a long the way, but I place no historicity at all there.

Bernard Muller wrote:
Jesus was not much of a teacher and his alleged parables first came from the mind of "Mark", for the edification of his gospel Christian audience.


Cordially, Bernard

This statement would ONLY apply in Mark was not a compilation, and the story originated like fiction from this one author.


While the Roman audience was important to the author. many of these traditions even though plagiarized from the OT text, show agrarian backgrounds and poverty typical of Galilean and other locations. There is also a lot of anti tax rhetoric in its themes which should have an Aramaic core.

You will not remove Galilee from the text with any ease here.

outhouse wrote:

Adam wrote:We know of no one else who so influenced Jesus as mentor;

Thank you Adam.

That in itself is strong evidence, those who deny this cannot address or refute.

I see you still apply muddled terminology. There is no need to refute conjectures. But go ahead. You probably cannot be helped.

outhouse wrote:To throw away the connection, means your in the wrong hobby.

A statement like this just proves that you still have no idea what you were and still are doing or what I actually criticized. Nobody "threw away the connection".

But I see you at least shied away from quoting the whole sentence in Adam's quote:

We know of no one else who so influenced Jesus as mentor; but, of course, those events also allow one to conclude that God was Jesus' supreme teacher and his beloved Father.

All 100% historical, I presume .

My last quoted sentence in above post by Ulan I corrected in the original to read "was", not "as" between "God" and "Jesus"

Adam wrote:My last quoted sentence in above post by Ulan I corrected in the original to read "was", not "as" between "God" and "Jesus"

Fixed.

Bernard Muller wrote:

May we look at the wedding in Cana? It might have been his wedding. The use of Hera's wine trick is fascinating as it is the sort of thing the very elite of society would do.

Very few critical scholars would consider that wedding as being not fiction from gJohn (the only gospel where it appears). And yes, it is undeniable there is a connection about that Jesus' alleged miracle (water into wine) and Greek mythological stories.
I noted in http://historical-jesus.info/jnorig.html
>> Dionysus?
According to Pausanias (115-180), the priests of Dionysus, at the temple of Elis, placed three empty large cauldrons in a sealed room and found them filled with wine on the next day. Jesus would outperform Dionysus' priests on two fronts: number (six to three) and time (immediately to one day)! <<

Cordially, Bernard

Sorry, I meant Hero and thus we actually have a date before which John could not have been written.

And, I believe, a household aware of this technology are not country bumpkins, but definitely upper class and educated.

Thus, it is entirely possible that one of Hero of Alexandria's devices was used by a new sect of Judaism in the 1 st century, and this cunning device became rather famous in later centuries and millennia. And we can be fairly certain that this did indeed happen, because among Hero’s many contraptions designed for entertainment, he created several different trick jars and jugs that, through ingenious internal compartments, plumbing, siphons and air-holes, a magician could alternate between the pouring of water or wine from the same vessel. An original account and image of this device is contained in Hero’s treatise on siphons, entitled ‘A Vessel from which Wine or Water may be made to flow, separately or mixed - See more at: http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient- ... i2qIN.dpuf

Or Jesus is a magician with some very up to date technology?