Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

to outhouse,

https://gatesofnineveh.wordpress.com/20 ... ish-queen/

This led to conflict between the Hellenized Jews of the ruling class and the Pharisees, a religious sect which advocated strict adherence to the Torah and Mosaic Law. The Pharisees viewed the Hellenized Jews as traitors who flouted the Mosaic Law, translated the Old Testament out of its original language and brought in dangerous foreign influences, while the Hellenized Jews tended to view the Pharisees as dangerous religious fanatics

That describes the situation during the Hasmoneans, not in the 1st cent. AD.
By the way, the article does not put the Sadducees then among the Hellenized Jews. Don't be misleading!

At around the same time, Aristobulus began associating himself with the Sadducees, another Jewish sect whose religious teachings often clashed with the Pharisees (the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife and rejected the oral law, holding that only the text of the Torah was authoritative). He began questioning the legitimacy of his mother’s rule, faulting the Pharisees who allowed “a woman who, against reason, was mad with ambition, to reign over them, when there were sons in the flower of their age fitter for it.”[13]

Aristobulus began plotting a coup with the Sadducees in an attempt to depose Alexandra, break the power of the Pharisees and prevent Hycranus from taking the throne. In 67 BC, he put his plan into action. He snuck out of Jerusalem at night and traveled to the fortresses which had been given to the Hellenized Jews to protect them from the Pharisees. They were all too ready to join in a revolt against the Pharisee-dominated government in Jerusalem, and quickly put themselves under Aristobulus’ control.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote:
the article does not put the Sadducees then among the Hellenized Jews. Don't be misleading!

Cordially, Bernard

I'm sorry you cannot comprehend the Hellenized Jews of the ruling class and the Pharisees

Provide sources there was a change in the Herodian regime

Bernard Muller wrote:That's still not enough to transform the traditional Jewish temple cult into a Hellenistic temple cult.




Cordially, Bernard

This quote demonstrates your idiocy or dishonesty .

The temple could be and was both.

But the temple was an innovation. This is where your Hellenism vs whatever distinction falls to the ground. The establishment of a permanent structure as opposed to a portable desert tabernacle was a more pressing concern for early Christianity than your made up nonsense

I have to repeat this thread because its obvious the clowns have missed it.

https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/purtell_ ... 208_ma.pdf


Romanization of the Royal Court

Another obligation of the client-king relationship was to encourage and promote
Romanization within his kingdom. This process was often a top-down phenomenon in
which rulers and their court voluntarily adopted Roman customs and habits, which slowly
disseminated throughout the realm. Herodian Judaea was no exception. Although some
degree of Hellenization had already occurred in Judaea during the Hasmonean period,
Herod accelerated the process By the end of his reign, Judaea was fully within the
Roman sphere, and Roman influences could be seen everywhere from buildings to
bathing practices..

Provide sources or be derided

to outhouse,

Bernard Muller wrote:

That's still not enough to transform the traditional Jewish temple cult into a Hellenistic temple cult.

This quote demonstrates your idiocy or dishonesty.
The temple could be and was both.

Gee, so the traditional Jewish temple cult existed together with the Hellenistic temple cult. How do you explain that? How do you think that would work? What was the difference? Do you think their adherents coexisted in peace in the same temple? Or the chief priests were switching cult from time to time? Can you find evidence which justify your contention?
I know, as usual, you will not answer my questions. Instead you'll throw me some insults.

Romanization of the Royal Court

Another obligation of the client-king relationship was to encourage and promote
Romanization within his kingdom. This process was often a top-down phenomenon in
which rulers and their court voluntarily adopted Roman customs and habits, which slowly
disseminated throughout the realm. Herodian Judaea was no exception. Although some
degree of Hellenization had already occurred in Judaea during the Hasmonean period,
Herod accelerated the process By the end of his reign, Judaea was fully within the
Roman sphere, and Roman influences could be seen everywhere from buildings to
bathing practices..

I already commented on that here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2388&p=53905&hilit= ... ces#p53905
The Hasmoneans and Herod the Great so-called Hellenization of Israel was skin deep only and not significant enough to change the facts that:
a) The temple cult was still an expression of traditional Judaism,
b) Jerusalem was still an Aramaic speaking and Jewish city,
c) The Sadducees were far to be Hellenized Jews.

Herod the Great did try to Hellenize Israel but he could not go very far due to the reluctance of many Jews to accept Hellenism. Actually, according to Josephus, the elite of Jerusalem Jews did not want to learn Greek (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2388&p=53863&hilit=tongue#p53863), even if Greek was widely spoken and (for educated ones) read all over the rest of the Roman empire (including Diaspora Jews). Certainly, Hellenization would start for literate people by learning Greek, which they were not doing in the upper class of Jewish Palestine.
PS: Herod was more into Romanization than Hellenization. Same for Pilate, but his attempt (the first event of his rule) was decidedly a failure and he had to backtrack (Josephus' Wars II, IX, 2-3 & Antiquities XVIII, III, 1).

Cordially, Bernard

to outhouse,

I'm sorry you cannot comprehend the Hellenized Jews of the ruling class and the Pharisees

Provide sources there was a change in the Herodian regime

Josephus did not include these so-called Hellenized Jews in his four Jewish philosophies/sects in the 1st century AD. So, all I can say, if it had existed during the Hasmonean era, these had disappeared as a significant group by this time.

However I did some digging about these Jews who were given the control of fortresses by queen Alexandra.
First they are never identified as "Hellenized Jews" (or anything similar or Sadducees) by Josephus in 'Antiquities' (XIII, XVI, 1-2) and Wars (I, V, 3).
Instead they are called advisors or friends of Alexander Janneus, the previous Jewish king, dead by then. It looks also they were military men because Queen Alexandra was afraid they would be recruited by Aretas for his army and because they were given fortresses to live in and defend, and because they later served in Aristobolus' army. Certainly, the Pharisees hated them, and killed them one by one if they could. Alexander had been a Hellenism lover but nothing in Josephus' works says that this king forced Hellenism implementation in his kingdom. But these so-called "Hellenized Jews" had Greek names, at least for the two we know of: Diogenes & Galestes. But that's still not enough to speculate they were "Hellenized Jews" from Jewish Palestine.
Sadducees are not mentioned by Josephus for the reigns of Alexander and Alexandra. They certainly would have if they were then considered enemies of the Pharisees, and the ones that the queen protected in her fortresses. The Pharisees then were predominant in the government of Alexandra.

Cordially, Bernard

1. First, you are to be commended, Bernard, for your good humor. Good Job.

Bernard Muller wrote:Josephus did not include these so-called Hellenized Jews in his four Jewish philosophies/sects in the 1st century AD. So, all I can say, if it had existed during the Hasmonean era, these had disappeared as a significant group by this time.

Depending on how you view Josephus at this point, this may or may not have meaning. Many look at the Essenes as an Interpolation. This is where outhouse and I have some negotiatin' to do.

2.

However I did some digging about these Jews who were given the control of fortresses by queen Alexandra.

My own Internal Markers tell me without doubt that it SHOULD BE Queen Salome. Jannaeus did not marry his brother's wife. Another PROBLEM with Josephus. He never EXPLICITLY states that Jannaeus married S. Alexandra. Jannaeus married a Virginal woman named Salome.

3.

First they are never identified as "Hellenized Jews" (or anything similar or Sadducees) by Josephus in 'Antiquities' (XIII, XVI, 1-2) and Wars (I, V, 3).

Josephus, Antiquities..., 13, 13, 5 and through 14:

"And when he [[Jannaeus]] desired that they would desist from their ill-will to him, they hated him so much the more, on account of what had already happened; and when he had asked them what he ought to do, they all cried out, that he ought to kill himself. They also sent to Demetrius Eucerus, and desired him to make a league of mutual defense with them. ...

"SO Demetrius came with an army, and took those that invited him, and pitched his camp near the city Shechem; upon which Alexander, with his six thousand two hundred mercenaries, and about twenty thousand Jews, who were of his party, went against Demetrius, who had three thousand horsemen, and forty thousand footmen. Now there were great endeavors used on both sides, - Demetrius trying to bring off the mercenaries that were with Alexander, because they were Greeks, and Alexander trying to bring off the Jews that were with Demetrius. However, when neither of them could persuade them so to do, they came to a battle, and Demetrius was the conqueror; in which all Alexander's mercenaries were killed, when they had given demonstration of their fidelity and courage. A great number of Demetrius's soldiers were slain also.

"Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had..."

Here's a question: If I use a "Times New Roman" Font, does this mean that I support the Retrograde New York Times in any manner? That I am a "New Roman", giving allegiance to any of the Caesars, including Julius? If so, then I'm switching Fonts immediately. I'm still waiting for the Times crowd to return Walter Duranty's Pulitzer. As to the Caesars, here is the time to wish for a Burning Hell, at least for them.

Where's Hegel when you need him? The real Question: According to the Text, there were Jews who were Mercs for Demetrius Eucerus. What does it mean to say that they were "Hellenized Jews"? Demetrius Eucerus did SOMETHING that caused the Jewish Mercs to go over to Jannaeus (HINT: Demetrius committed the "Abomination of Desolation"). Were these Mercs now officially NOT Hellenized Jews anymore? Was there something like the "Elks Club" or "Polish-American Society" for "Hellenized Jews"? I don't think so. The Issues would be around Genesis ("You are dust and you return to dust") and Ecclesiastes 9: 5 - 6 RSV):

[5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.
[6] Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.

Against this is "There is an Immortal Soul". In fact, this issue did play out and the "Immortal Soul" won the day, although it may have had help from a coupla' occupants in a coupla' buildings in Rome.

There is still a long way to go on this Thesis.

Cordially, Bernard

Please keep ending your Posts in this manner.

CW

Bernard Muller wrote:
Gee, so the traditional Jewish temple cult existed together with the Hellenistic temple cult. How do you explain that?



Cordially, Bernard

Easy.

You have comprehensive issues I have harped on you for over 5 years about.


But the above statement is just dishonest as I never described 2 different cults as you are. You changed my context out of desperation when you had your zz handed to you.