Passover & the passion narrative before Mark.

[Ben C. Smith]

In Paul, it isn't a Passover meal either, right?

It is not specified as one, though 1 Corinthians 5.7b says, "For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed," which may imply that Christ was crucified while the lambs were being slaughtered (that is, before the Passover, as in John).

In the Didache not either, if I remember correctly.

Correct.

I've heard explanations that the high priests were supposed to be shown in an particularly depraved light by breaking their own rules with the trial. It's a possibility.

Sure, that is possible. But then, why did they have to break their own rules in the first place? They were obviously in a hurry for some reason....

Ben.

[Ulan]

Do you find it hard to believe that pious jews might have a problem having a pagan deity on the require silver temple coins in gods own house? AFTER rioting and the tortures when the eagle was removed from the entry way a short time before ?

I brought this up just recently. You can read my thread about it if you want to know more.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Pursuant to the discussion on another thread, I would like to present what many scholars feel is a very strong argument for a Passion Narrative that predates Mark (and which Mark incorporated).

What are the counterarguments?

I don't know what you personally think about the "very strong argument" by "many scholars", especially when it comes down to such speculations.

and possibly also a change from "the day of preparation for the Passover" to "the day of preparation for the Sabbath" in Mark 15.42 (compare John 19.14)

(No counterargument will be given to these sinful scholars)

A Markan sandwich and some questions of time

A	1 It was now two days before the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to arrest him by stealth and kill him, 2 for they said, “Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar from the people.”
B	3 And while he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he was reclining at table, a woman came with an alabaster flask of ointment of pure nard, very costly, and she broke the flask and poured it over his head. 4 There were some who said to themselves indignantly, “Why was the ointment wasted like that? 5 For this ointment could have been sold for more than three hundred denarii and given to the poor.” And they scolded her. 6 But Jesus said, “Leave her alone. Why do you trouble her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 7 For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you want, you can do good for them. But you will not always have me. 8 She has done what she could; she has anointed my body beforehand for burial. 9 And truly, I say to you, wherever the gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be told in memory of her.”
A'	10 Then Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve, went to the chief priests in order to betray him to them. 11 And when they heard it, they were glad and promised to give him money. And he sought an opportunity to betray him.

- Jesus' enemies are looking for the right time
- the woman (an outsider) and Jesus understand that the time has come
- the insiders don't understand this

1. The author of this text has designed a literary form and the plot revolves around the theme of time.
2. 2.000 years later, "many scholars" believe that they would understand more and better than the author himself.
3.

[Ulan]

So, as usual, the seemingly obvious details don't matter.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

I beg you! The question is, in what context it makes sense to discuss the details. It does not mean that the problems should not to be discussed, but that one should realize first that the text is basically a unit. "Very strong" is here

- the literary form and
- the theme of time within the plot

[Ulan]

This your post bore the number of the beast .

My post wasn't criticism. Your underlining made it quite obvious that you seem to be on the right track.

[DCHindley]

So, as usual, the seemingly obvious details don't matter.

Why start paying attention to obvious details now?

They have been out of fashion for several decades. Yes?

Of course, the question must be, "Obvious to whom?"

What seems perfectly obvious to a die-hard conspiracy theorist will be miles apart from what a non-conspiracy theorist may find obvious. They are not tuned-in to the same subsets from the available pool of evidence (I'm afraid to use the word "facts").

Methodology, and practicality, force all historians, professional or amateur, to pick and choose from the same pool of available evidence in order to facilitate analysis and hypothesis. To do so, they may have to "tune out" certain facts that they consider "noise" within that pool of available evidence. In other words, we have to assign significance to individual pieces of evidence. After all, most of us have only a limited mental bandwidth to work with, so we have to limit the data we subject to analysis.

DCH

[Ulan]

Of course, the question must be, "Obvious to whom?"

You are of course right, DCH, also with the parts I didn't quote. I singled this sentence out because there is also the issue that the sheer fact of the four-fold gospel makes the repeated parts more "obvious" than all the others. They are always there, in our subconscious, ready to play their role on the stage.

[DCHindley]

Ulan et al,

I too have wondered why Jesus' suffering/execution is connected to the Passover sacrifice in the NT, but is connected to the Day of Atonement ritual in Barnabas. The common wisdom is that Barnabas is more primitive than the NT Gospels, but why did the interpretive emphasis shift from the Day of Atonement sacrifice(s), which at least meshes with the NT theology of Christ's death as an atoning sacrifice for sins of ignorance, to a Passover sacrifice?

Could a ritual observance of a Passover sacrifice have been of especial significance of any part of the Jesus movement in particular? I think Jesus had been a teacher/prophet of what the transition from the current system of things to the messianic age would be like. The desire to participate in that age was strongest among ethnic Judeans, but it was also embraced by a segment of gentiles. Some, like the Syrophoenician woman, were happy to benefit as resident aliens in the messianic kingdom, but others I am sure were gentiles who had gone as far as to become proselytes (whether this included circumcision at some point in the process is uncertain, but probably did), to experience the full benefits as stakeholders.

Now, if you were ethnically a gentile and knew that a new messianic kingdom would soon sweep away the Roman empire through the intervention of armies of angels ("angels of death" so to speak), the Passover ritual could take on an extra-special meaning. "Just like the first born sons of the people of Israel were saved by the blood of the Passover lamb sacrifice, so will our first born sons live on when the messianic kingdom is established, on account of the blood of Jesus' sacrifice of his very self." The other followers, those ethnically of Judean stock, tended to see Jesus' death as the equivalent of one of the sacrifices made on the Day of Atonement.

When the spit occurred between the gentile proselyte Jesus followers and their Judean "brothers", the gentiles came to revere Jesus as the Passover sacrifice (the NT Gospels) and Judeans revered him as a sacrifice for the sins of ignorance of the nation (Barnabas).

DCH

[outhouse]

I too have wondered why Jesus' suffering/execution is connected to the Passover sacrifice in the NT,


DCH

While standing this was the largest "event" at the most lavish building built in this geographic area. It was a wonder of the world, where even gentiles traveled for months to attend this drunken BBQ.

It occupied a very short period of time from completion to destruction. It was on a razors edge for its whole existence being placed in with these rebellious people.


Its presence had its own gravity so to speak.


Regardless of a Galilean, the political turmoil was ripe for a hero figure to emerge.


It is a pivotal in explaining the rapid spread of Christianity all over the Diaspora , as people took traditions home with them and these communities grew larger yearly.


It also serves a possible basis for the creation of the gospels, as when the temple fell the way these people shared information had changed forever providing a strong need to develop literary means of spreading the good word.

It also may have been how Pauline communities sent messages to different parts of the Diaspora. Sort of a central mailing hub.