Blasphemy & the passion narrative before Mark.

[John2]

Why doesn't Hegesippus say that the Pharisees killed James for pronouncing the divine name when he used the same "power" circumlocution?

"The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: ‘Thou just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.’ And he answered with a loud voice, ‘Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.’ And when many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said, ‘Hosanna to the Son of David,’ these same Scribes and Pharisees said again to one another, ‘We have done badly in supplying such testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, in order that they may be afraid to believe him.’ And they cried out, saying, ‘Oh! oh! the just man is also in error’" (EH 2.23).

[John2]

The entire conversation at the trial is in Greek. Whenever Jesus cites the OT I presume he uses the LXX. So what difference does it make if he uses "power" or "Lord" if they are both Greek circumlocutions for YHWH? What does it matter if one is rare and one is common; in both cases he doesn't say YHWH because he is speaking in Greek; in both cases the word means YHWH in Hebrew. Are you suggesting that there was a pre-Marcan text or tradition in which Jesus spoke in Hebrew at his trial? Otherwise I don't see the difference between using power or Lord for YHWH in Greek.

[John2]

Just noticed something from Osborne (so it's not just me):

"One finds two levels of blasphemy here: Jesus' claim to have comprehensive authority from God, and his claim to be the future judge of the Jewish leaders themselves (violating Ex. 22:28 on not cursing God's leaders). This latter could also be used as a socio-political challenge to Rome's authority" (pg. 999).

https://books.google.com/books?id=UhVDx ... on&f=false

Also noticed a brief view from Wellburn (pg. 162):

"...'the Great Power' -a well known circumlocution for God."

https://books.google.com/books?id=c0cKA ... cQ6AEILTAD

I'm going to look into this "power" circumlocution more.

[Ben C. Smith]

The entire conversation at the trial is in Greek. Whenever Jesus cites the OT I presume he uses the LXX. So what difference does it make if he uses "power" or "Lord" if they are both Greek circumlocutions for YHWH? What does it matter if one is rare and one is common; in both cases he doesn't say YHWH because he is speaking in Greek; in both cases the word means YHWH in Hebrew. Are you suggesting that there was a pre-Marcan text or tradition in which Jesus spoke in Hebrew at his trial? Otherwise I don't see the difference between using power or Lord for YHWH in Greek.

The entire understanding of Jesus in Mark is that he and his interlocutors are speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew all along throughout the gospel, just as, when we read a story set in Mexico, we understand that the characters are actually speaking Spanish, even though we are reading their words in English... right? (If this is not common ground between us, then I am not sure even how to respond.)

[Ben C. Smith]

Also noticed a brief view from Wellburn (pg. 162):

"...'the Great Power' -a well known circumlocution for God."

https://books.google.com/books?id=c0cKA ... cQ6AEILTAD

I'm going to look into this "power" circumlocution more.

I believe "power" was used occasionally as a substitute for Yahweh, yes. But it is still rare, far rarer than God or Lord, and it is unique in Mark.

[John2]

If we are to think that Jesus is speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew, then he is speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew when he reads Ps. 118 in Mk. 12:1-11 and Ps. 110 in Mk. 12:36 and would not be using the Greek circumlocution Lord.

[Ben C. Smith]

If we are to think that Jesus is speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew, then he is speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew when he reads Ps. 118 in Mk. 12:1-11 and Ps. 110 in Mk. 12:36 and would not be using the Greek circumlocution Lord.

(Not reads, but quotes.)

Correct. He would be using the Hebrew or Aramaic circumlocution "Lord".

[John2]

How do you know that?

[Ben C. Smith]

How do you know that?

I am just following the line of translation. Aramaic and Hebrew both have good words for Lord, and Greek has a good word for Lord. Lord is such a common circumlocution that there is no reason to suspect that it was not what is being reported. Again, I may not be certain what you are objecting to.

[John2]

I don't know either and I've stopped caring about the subject. It's too busy at work to think right now so I'll sleep on it again.