Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

"The Languages of Palestine in the First Century A.D." It was originally published in the Catholic Biblical Quarterly 32 (1970): 501-31.

Fitzmyer notes how widespread Greek was. Our oldest inscription is from 277 BC, observes that Esdras, 2 Maccabees, and additions to Esther and Daniel were composed in Greek. Josephus and Justus of Tiberius wrote in Greek, but Josephus needed some help of assistants to do it. Epigraphic materials come in a variety of forms: the prohibition of Gentiels to enter the Holy Place and the Theodotus inscription of a synagogue dedication being the most famous of these. Many ossuaries (burial boxes) show up with Greek inscriptions. Materials from Murabba'at and Wadi Habra also show use of Greek. He thinks it likely Jesus spoke Greek, fitting its "widespread" use in the region, including towns with use by farmers and tradesmen.

to outhouse,

"with little interest for the Law", is from a corrupt cowardly Hellenistic Pharisee jew, that amounted to an enemy of Aramaic Jews in Galilee.

So this Pharisee, because you assume was a) Hellenistic, b) corrupt c) an enemy of Aramaic Jews (despite he spent 18 years among them) had to be lying.
That's an effective way to destroy the evidence: defame the messenger.

Bernard Muller wrote:

And from where did you get many proselytes were Roman citizens?

Bernard. This shows how severely ignorant you are on these topics. You should know the answer blindfolded before entering any debate.

But still no evidence to support your claim.

Which is a reflection of Professors and scholars and anthropology.
Anthropology is where the knowledge comes from that dictates what can be historical from the text.

Reflection, opinions. So how these professors and scholars and anthropology think the temple is factually key to the origin of Christianity? Answer that for all of us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem ... ple_Period
Social and religious state
Herod once again turned Jerusalem into a Hellenistic city, including all the constituent elements and institutions of a Polis. He built a large theatre, instituted wrestling tournaments in honor of the Emperor, staged spectacles where men fought wild animals,[24] and encouraged gentile immigration to Jerusalem.
Herod adorned his Hellenistic architecture with decorations depicting pagan gods and his currency carried pagan motifs

As I said before, it was lot more Romanization than Hellenization. And mostly on architecture.
And still no evidence for significant Gentile immigration to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem was at once a grand pagan city and the center of Jewish life at its peak. Temple ritual continued unabated in the new and lavish building. Huge number of pilgrims, perhaps as many as a million,[42] filled the city streets during Passover, supposedly in an atmosphere described by the Talmud as :

Again the "pagan" comes from the architecture.

Your link only shows he was just learning greek and not accustom to it.

Josephus learned Greek in Rome, not in Jerusalem, because he wanted to translate his first book (Wars, written in Aramaic in Rome) to Greek, in order to make it known to Greek literates.
Read again viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2388&p=53863&hilit= ... med#p53862

Not only that many Israelite Jews only knew Aramaic and possibly some Hebrew And Aramaic was their primary language. We know Koine existed and flourished in Jerusalem despite Josephus claims which was Rhetorical history.

How do you know Koine existed and flourished in Jerusalem? Oh, now Josephus' claims were rhetorical history, which probably means for you they are false. Another way for you to destroy the evidence.

status of Greek in the upper class in Jerusalem is something you made up, as he makes no such claim. Basically he is just learning Greek, and I never claimed all Jews were Hellenist. JUST that Hellenist were the ones doing the oppressing.

Yes, he made such claims, not only for himself, but also generally for all literate Jews in Jewish Palestine.
Read again viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2388&p=53863&hilit= ... med#p53862
Of course not all Jews were Hellenists. Why states the obvious? The fact is the upper class Jews of Palestine did not know Greek.

With that said Josephus came from a priestly sect, which was one of many, he does not in any way represent the Jewish puppet government placed in power by Herod in Jerusalem.

Why did he have to represent the government? Besides there was no Jewish government in Jerusalem during Josephus' times, only for the administration of the temple.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote: The fact is the upper class Jews of Palestine did not know Greek.


Cordially, Bernard

Not what he stated, nor is it a fact. Your being dishonest for ego reasons. You will not advance your knowledge if you think you know it all

You purposely ignore the division between Israelite Jews and Hellenist in Jerusalem and all of Israel. The same division that started Christianity.

Bernard Muller wrote:defame the messenger.


.

Cordially, Bernard

He was a coward and traitor to his own people, and that is how he is remembered. It is YOU shooting me the messenger of truth here.

to outhouse,

Not what he stated, nor is it a fact. Your being dishonest for ego reasons. You will not advance your knowledge if you think you know it all

Ant., XX, XI, 2 "I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations ..."

Preface of Antiquities, 2: "but in process of time, as usually happens to such as undertake great things, I grew weary and went on slowly, it being a large subject, and a difficult thing to translate our history into a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language [Greek]."

Wars, Preface, 1 "I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our country" ('Wars' was first written by Josephus in Aramaic)

Against Apion, I, 9 "Afterward I got leisure in Rome [after 70C.E.]; and when all that material were prepared for that work ['Wars'], I made use of some persons to assist me in learning the Greek tongue ..."

Josephus wrote 'Wars' in Aramaic, in Rome, then he learned Greek in order to translate his book in Greek.
He said "our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations" and he also said "a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language" meaning Greek was an unaccustomed language for the Jewish upper class of Palestine (Palestine only because Diaspora Jews knew Greek).

Cordially, Bernard

So you read Josephus literally, I mean blindly.


One would have to be retarded to interpret this literally. Let me make it painfully obvious how little you know here.


You would be an idiot if you claimed Jerusalem was not Hellenistic, and you did claim such. And you were shown how bad you were in error.


Now with this your idiocy is shining. Reading this literally is the same as any apologist read Genesis literally. I feel sorry that you waste so much time in this hobby while completely lost.

Why was the Theodotus inscription of a synagogue dedication in Greek?

Why was the prohibition of Gentiels to enter the Holy Place in Greek?


Why was the temple coins in Greek?

Why did many ossuaries have Greek writing from this exact time period ?

file:///C:/Users/Outhouse/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/90FK70OA/11b%20Fitzmyer.pdf

Hebrew did not wholly disappear from Palestine, either when Aramaic had become the more common language or when Palestinian Jews gradually began to use Greek. The composition of Daniel and of Ben Sira is an indication of the continued use of it.

This below is important for your small mind. And would have been known to Josephus

the use of Hebrew became a token of one's loyalty to the national effort

Qumrân fragments, but not to the same extent as the Hebrew. The few fragments of the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament were also found in Qumrân Cave IV; they suggest that at least some of the community were reading Greek, and probably speaking it.6

This very brief historical sketch provides the background for the use of four languages in Palestine about the time when Christianity emerged.

You are being an idiot here.


This paragraph explains Josephus context in FULL bedrnard

Several points should be noted in Josephus' statement. First, his record of a popular boastful attitude that the learning of Greek would be an ordinary achievement for many Palestinians, even for freemen and slaves, if they wanted to do so. The attitude is at least condescending. Secondly, such learning was not so much esteemed as knowledge of the Mosaic Law and the interpretation of Scripture. Thirdly, Josephus testifies about the efforts that he personally made to acquire a good command of Greek. Fourthly, he also gives the impression that few Palestinian Jews of his day could speak Greek well. From other places in his writings we know that he acted as an interpreter for Titus, speaking "in his native tongue" to the populace toward the end of the war.33 Titus himself had addressed the Jews of Palestine in Greek, but preferred to have Josephus parley with them hebraizön. This may suggest that Palestinian Jews did not understand Greek very well, and bear out the comment of Josephus himself cited above. However, J. N. Sevenster has plausibly noted that we do not know how well Titus himself could speak Greek.34 Hence Josephus' task as interpreter does not necessarily mean that little Greek was actually understood. Again Josephus informs us that he composed his Jewish War originally "in his native tongue" (tè patrio [glosse] ), destining it for Parthians, Babylonians, the tribes of Arabia, Jews beyond the Euphrates and in Adiabene.35 This destination almost certainly implies that it was originally written in the lingua franca, Aramaic.36 Josephus subsequently translated this composition into Greek (helladi glosse metabalön) ,37 to provide subjects of the Roman empire with his version of the Palestinian revolt. What a problem this was for him he reveals in the Antiquities, where he still looks on Greek as "foreign and unfamiliar."38 And yet, despite this attitude, the end-product of his efforts has been hailed as "an excellent specimen of the Atticistic Greek of the first century."39

But the real difficulty in this testimony of Josephus is that his Greek writings were composed in Rome, not in Palestine ; and he frankly admits that he composed the Greek version of the Jewish War in the leisure that Rome afforded, "making use of some assistants for the sake of the Greek" (chrësamenos tisi pros tën hellënida phônën synergois).*0 Presumably, other Jewish authors in Palestine who might have wanted to write in Greek could have found there comparable assistants. This may seem to have been essential for literary composition, but it says little about the degree of communication between Palestinian Jews in Greek. If Josephus' testimony leaves the picture of Greek in first-century Palestine unclear, there are many other considerations that persuade us that Greek was widely used at this time and not only in the clearly Hellenized towns, but in many others as well. Indeed, there are some indications that Palestinian Jews in some areas may have used nothing else but Greek.

Get an education

to outhouse,

"The Languages of Palestine in the First Century A.D." It was originally published in the Catholic Biblical Quarterly 32 (1970): 501-31.

Fitzmyer notes how widespread Greek was. Our oldest inscription is from 277 BC, observes that Esdras, 2 Maccabees, and additions to Esther and Daniel were composed in Greek. Josephus and Justus of Tiberius wrote in Greek, but Josephus needed some help of assistants to do it. Epigraphic materials come in a variety of forms: the prohibition of Gentiels to enter the Holy Place and the Theodotus inscription of a synagogue dedication being the most famous of these. Many ossuaries (burial boxes) show up with Greek inscriptions. Materials from Murabba'at and Wadi Habra also show use of Greek. He thinks it likely Jesus spoke Greek, fitting its "widespread" use in the region, including towns with use by farmers and tradesmen.

Fitzmyer is a Catholic priest and scholar. So he was prone to be biased, more so because he had Jesus speaking Greek, that most scholars, and you, and myself, reject.
- oldest inscription is from 277 BC: but the Hellenist kingdoms controlled Palestine in these days.
- Esdras, 2 Maccabees, and additions to Esther and Daniel were composed in Greek: but where? likely among Diaspora Jews, as for the other Jewish scriptures translated in Greek.
- Josephus: I covered that.
- Justus of Tiberias: we do not know when & where he wrote his books, and when and where he knew Greek. Maybe he followed the same path than Josephus.
- Yes the signs in the temple (rebuilt by Herod), warning Gentiles not to go in the Jews-only sanctuary were in Greek. Maybe it was thought Gentiles were most likely to know Greek rather than Aramaic. But why not also in Aramaic? I wonder. Maybe it was thought Gentiles were unlikely to know Aramaic only.
- The Theodotus inscription of a synagogue: more than a synagogue but also "hostelry, rooms and baths, for the lodging of those who have need from abroad.". Obviously the whole was dedicated for Greek speaking Diaspora Jews in pilgrimage to Jerusalem.
- Materials from Murabba'at and Wadi Habra also show use of Greek: that dates from the Jewish second wars, so way after 30-70 AD, and therefore out of context.
My theory is significant amount of Diaspora Jews joins Bar Kochba, bringing with them Greek material.
- Many ossuaries (burial boxes) show up with Greek inscriptions: Dating of these ossuaries is difficult and close to impossible. Furthermore evidence has been found that ossuaries from the Diaspora were brought to Jerusalem.
Also because of the holocaust happening in Judea in 70 AD, leading to a huge depopulation, Diaspora Jews might have moved in, in order to occupy & work land around Jerusalem.
Also, some Diaspora Jews, after a very physically demanding trip to Jerusalem, might have died here. More so when the city was cramped and prone to generate many spreading diseases.

All of that, in any ways, does not show the Jewish elite in Palestine was Hellenistic in the time of Jesus.

Cordially, Bernard

to outhouse,

Why was the temple coins in Greek?

Diaspora Jews in pilgrimage to Jerusalem, with all kind of coins, had to exchange those for Tyrian shekels in order to pay for rituals in the temple. Some of this exchange was done in the temple courts, outside the Jew-only compound. http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... salem.aspx
Nothing to do about Hellenization of the temple or the chief priests were Hellenized.

Several points should be noted in Josephus' statement. First, his record of a popular boastful attitude that the learning of Greek would be an ordinary achievement for many Palestinians, even for freemen and slaves, if they wanted to do so. The attitude is at least condescending. Secondly, such learning was not so much esteemed as knowledge of the Mosaic Law and the interpretation of Scripture. Thirdly, Josephus testifies about the efforts that he personally made to acquire a good command of Greek. Fourthly, he also gives the impression that few Palestinian Jews of his day could speak Greek well. From other places in his writings we know that he acted as an interpreter for Titus, speaking "in his native tongue" to the populace toward the end of the war.33 Titus himself had addressed the Jews of Palestine in Greek, but preferred to have Josephus parley with them hebraizön. This may suggest that Palestinian Jews did not understand Greek very well, and bear out the comment of Josephus himself cited above. However, J. N. Sevenster has plausibly noted that we do not know how well Titus himself could speak Greek.34 Hence Josephus' task as interpreter does not necessarily mean that little Greek was actually understood. Again Josephus informs us that he composed his Jewish War originally "in his native tongue" (tè patrio [glosse] ), destining it for Parthians, Babylonians, the tribes of Arabia, Jews beyond the Euphrates and in Adiabene.35 This destination almost certainly implies that it was originally written in the lingua franca, Aramaic.36 Josephus subsequently translated this composition into Greek (helladi glosse metabalön) ,37 to provide subjects of the Roman empire with his version of the Palestinian revolt. What a problem this was for him he reveals in the Antiquities, where he still looks on Greek as "foreign and unfamiliar."38 And yet, despite this attitude, the end-product of his efforts has been hailed as "an excellent specimen of the Atticistic Greek of the first century."39

What don't you source this document so we can check its context, more so who wrote it?
Anyway it is overly biased, but it shows why kind of text you rely on for your theories.

- "if they wanted to do so": Josephus said they did not want to do so: "for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations"

- few Palestinian Jews of his day could speak Greek well: Exactly. And of course reading Greek is another matter, more so because the letters are not the same.

- Between Titus speaking Greek and Josephus speaking Aramaic, all was needed was a translator. No need for Josephus to know Greek.
And for Greek speaking Titus addressing Jewish Aramaic crowds, also all what was needed was, again, a translator. Same for Pilate.

- "destining it for Parthians, Babylonians, the tribes of Arabia, Jews beyond the Euphrates and in Adiabene": Josephus never said that.

But the real difficulty in this testimony of Josephus is that his Greek writings were composed in Rome, not in Palestine ; and he frankly admits that he composed the Greek version of the Jewish War in the leisure that Rome afforded, "making use of some assistants for the sake of the Greek" (chrësamenos tisi pros tën hellënida phônën synergois).*0 Presumably, other Jewish authors in Palestine who might have wanted to write in Greek could have found there comparable assistants. This may seem to have been essential for literary composition, but it says little about the degree of communication between Palestinian Jews in Greek. If Josephus' testimony leaves the picture of Greek in first-century Palestine unclear, there are many other considerations that persuade us that Greek was widely used at this time and not only in the clearly Hellenized towns, but in many others as well. Indeed, there are some indications that Palestinian Jews in some areas may have used nothing else but Greek.

Again, no identification of the source of this text, so no way to know its context. But, obviously, the author wanted to downgrade Josephus' testimony, because, without citing any evidence, he invokes "considerations', mysterious "Hellenized towns", "some indication" "in some area" Palestinians Jews "may have" used only Greek: Evidence please. More like wishful thinking to me.

None of that indicates the Jewish elite of Palestine was Hellenistic.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote: All of that, in any ways, does not show the Jewish elite in Palestine was Hellenistic in the time of Jesus.


Cordially, Bernard

You are much more dishonest then I thought as you desperately defend your fragile ego.

Your moving goal post.

That was only to show the use of Greek language in Jerusalem and Israel.


You would be an idiot if you claimed Jerusalem was not Hellenistic