Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

From your own sources. You are POE or stupid.

The Hellenic influence pervaded everything, and even in the very strongholds of Judaism it modified the organization of the state, the laws, and public affairs, art, science, and industry, affecting even the ordinary things of life and the common associations of the people.

. But it was especially with the advent of the Idumean Herod and his dynasty that Hellenism once more threatened to overwhelm Jewish culture. Hesrod's theater, his amphitheater, his hippodrome, and his palace, though such buildings existed also in Jericho, Tiberias, and Tarichæa, were thoroughly Greek building in the very midst of Jerusalem; his Temple also showed this influence in its architecture. The inscription forbidding strangers to advance beyond a certain point in the Temple was in Greek; and was probably made necessary by the presence of numerous Jews from Greek-speaking countries at the time of the festivals (comp. the "murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews," Acts vi. 1). The coffers in the Temple which contained the shekel contributions were marked with Greek letters (Sheḳ. iii. 2). It is therefore no wonder that there were synagogues of the Libertines, Cyrenians, Alexandrians, Cilicians, and Asiatics in the Holy City itself (Acts vi. 9).

to outhouse,

The Hellenic influence pervaded everything, and even in the very strongholds of Judaism it modified the organization of the state, the laws, and public affairs, art, science, and industry, affecting even the ordinary things of life and the common associations of the people.

So what? it's only Hellenic influence, not Hellenization, and it is not on matter of culture, religion and language.
Actually this Hellenic influence was no more than about "modernization" of "organization of the state, the laws, and public affairs, art, science, and industry". That was Hellenic just because Greeks and Romans were in the forefront in these domains.

But it was especially with the advent of the Idumean Herod and his dynasty that Hellenism once more threatened to overwhelm Jewish culture. Hesrod's theater, his amphitheater, his hippodrome, and his palace, though such buildings existed also in Jericho, Tiberias, and Tarichæa, were thoroughly Greek building in the very midst of Jerusalem; his Temple also showed this influence in its architecture. The inscription forbidding strangers to advance beyond a certain point in the Temple was in Greek; and was probably made necessary by the presence of numerous Jews from Greek-speaking countries at the time of the festivals (comp. the "murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews," Acts vi. 1). The coffers in the Temple which contained the shekel contributions were marked with Greek letters (Sheḳ. iii. 2). It is therefore no wonder that there were synagogues of the Libertines, Cyrenians, Alexandrians, Cilicians, and Asiatics in the Holy City itself (Acts vi. 9).

"Threatened to overwhelm" is not the same as "overwhelmed". The rest does not amount into making Jerusalem Hellenized, as I explained earlier on this thread.
Acts mentioned only one synagogue in Jerusalem, not several.

Cordially, Bernard

to outhouse,

Here is clue, conversation is over berny, if you have anything else to say YOU PROVIDE SOURCES that state the temple was not Hellenistic. I have provided many, you none

The temple can be considered Hellenistic, but only because mostly of its architecture provided by Herod the Great. I never denied that. However, neither the Sadducees (who were controlling the temple), nor the rituals were Hellenistic.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote: , neither the Sadducees (who were controlling the temple), nor the rituals were Hellenistic


Cordially, Bernard

We know the rituals were Jewish. with Hellenistic influence. If you want details that can be provided.

Provide sources the Sadducees were not Hellenistic, you cannot be trusted for opinion.

Let me give you an example of how to debate using sources, something you lack at.

http://bibarch.com/glossary/MI/Sadducees.htm

This priestly aristocratic party, who were pragmatic Hellenized Jews held in contempt and resisted by the Pharisees, readily aligned themselves with their Roman masters—for the Sadducees comprised a classic collaborating elite. The priests, who were largely Sadducees, were Hellenistic and assumed Greek names.

This speaks of the division I first suggested to you which you BLINDLY and ignorantly refused.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... enism.html

One aspect of the contact between Hellenism (and Rome) and Judaism deserves special treatment, the spiritual resistance against their rule. The struggle of the Jewish people against Greek and Roman domination was accompanied by a literature which encouraged and intensified resistance. After military defeat it became frequently the only weapon, an important instrument of hope and survival. A significant trend in recent scholarship considers much of Jewish literature between Alexander the Great and the conquest of Islam as spiritual or religious resistance.

to outhouse,

We know the rituals were Jewish. with Hellenistic influence.

What Hellenistic influence?

http://bibarch.com/glossary/MI/Sadducees.htm
This priestly aristocratic party, who were pragmatic Hellenized Jews held in contempt and resisted by the Pharisees, readily aligned themselves with their Roman masters—for the Sadducees comprised a classic collaborating elite. The priests, who were largely Sadducees, were Hellenistic and assumed Greek names.

Where did that guy get that the priests were largely Sadducees? This is wrong and that tells a lot about the accuracy of his statements.
The Sadducees were pragmatic in matter of politics but very conservative on matter of religion, certainly not accepting any gentile add-ons (but the Pharisees did), not even Jewish scriptures outside the Torah. Nothing here to make them Hellenized, more so, that according to Josephus, as members of the literate & upper class, they were not into learning Greek and certainly not encouraging others to learn it.
Not all Sadducees had Greek names, and the ones who did were probably named (by their parents) as such to please the Romans.
I have a German last name: that does not make me a German, knowing German culture & language.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... enism.html
One aspect of the contact between Hellenism (and Rome) and Judaism deserves special treatment, the spiritual resistance against their rule. The struggle of the Jewish people against Greek and Roman domination was accompanied by a literature which encouraged and intensified resistance. After military defeat it became frequently the only weapon, an important instrument of hope and survival. A significant trend in recent scholarship considers much of Jewish literature between Alexander the Great and the conquest of Islam as spiritual or religious resistance.

Yes the Jews of Jewish Palestine were spiritually resisting Hellenism and romanisation, and sometimes beyond spiritually (as for the eagle during Herod the Great's reign and the first event during Pilate's rule).

Cordially, Bernard

Here is clue, conversation is over berny, if you have anything else to say YOU PROVIDE SOURCES that state the temple was not Hellenistic. I have provided many, you none

to outhouse,

Here is clue, conversation is over berny, if you have anything else to say YOU PROVIDE SOURCES that state the temple was not Hellenistic. I have provided many, you none

Your sources are modern commentary by scholars, with very little to support it, and no evidence the cult and rituals had become Hellenistic. Why don't you provide sources from someone in antiquity saying that the temple was significantly Hellenistic?
And it depends on what you mean exactly by "Hellenistic" regarding the temple. And how much Hellenistic? 10 % or 90% for example?
I put between 10 % to 20 % mostly because of Herod's architecture (BTW, as much Roman than Greek).
How much Hellenistic do you think the temple was? and why? That are questions which of course you will never answered such as:

We know the rituals were Jewish. with Hellenistic influence.

What Hellenistic influence?

Answer that one.
I kept answering your questions but you do not for several dozens of mine.

Probably, no scholar wrote that the Herodian temple was not Hellenistic, but that would be because its architecture would prevent any of them to say that. And I am quite sure comments had been made at length on the temple without mentioning anything about it being Hellenistic, as in Josephus' Wars.

Why, is the temple was so Hellenistic, knowing the Greek language was not a perequisite for serving into it as a priest?

Cordially, Bernard

I couldn’t find out who are behind the website bibarch. All I could find was an NC PO Box. The copyright is for something called High Top Media which I assume is part of MediaCom.

I wonder if this article by Stanley E Porter might help with understanding the problems of determining how much Greek Jews living in Palestine used - https://www.ibr-bbr.org/files/bbr/BBR_2 ... eGreek.pdf

Porter discusses Josephus’ statement in Jewish Wars regarding his Greek –

However, there is probably more to be learned from this statement than some have realized. Josephus admits respecting the historian Justus, author of a history of the Jewish wars against Vespasian (and known only through what is said about him by Josephus), for his knowledge of Greek, acquired in the Greek educational system in Tiberias (Life 34-42, 336-60; cf. also 65, 88, 175-78, 186, 279, 390-93, 410). Further, it is not uncommon to find ancient authors commenting on their literary inadequacies.33 As a result, Rajak argues that it was not that Josephus did not have a knowledge of what she calls "the ordinary language, spoken or written," but that Josephus had not been formally educated in the language and could not write the kind of Atticistic prose that would have been desirable in Rome, probably due to the aversion of some Jews of the time to this level of Greek education.

(p 79)