The Origins of Christianity

[MrMacSon]

to MrMacSon,

please elaborate on "forgiveness of sins (only alluded by Philo)" ...

"the man [the high priest] who was consecrated to the Father of the world, should have as a paraclete [intercessor], his Son, the being most perfect in all virtue, to procure forgiveness of sins, and a supply of unlimited blessings..." (On the life of Moses II, ch. XXVI)

The Son, as the intercessor, is associated with procuring forgiveness of sins. Also, according to Philo, the Son is the ultimate High Priest (in heaven), so also would himself procure forgiveness of sins directly.

This is only an allusion/inspiration, but I think good enough to set the author of Hebrews on track for the Sacrifice for atonement of sins.

Cordially, Bernard

Cheers, Bernard. I wonder if this passage, and the points you highlight, are more significant than has been determined in the past(?)

[neilgodfrey]

The article that you linked to by Jona Lendering is one of several of hers on Messianic claimants – http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/me ... nts00.html

She writes,

We know that both Jesus and Theudas, together with Judas' (grand)son Menahem, were called Messiahs, and this makes it extremely likely that this title was given to Judas too. An additional argument is that Judas made a bid for national independence, something that was expected from the Messiah. In about 47, Judas' sons Jacob and Simon were arrested and crucified by governor Tiberius Julius Alexander. The story is told by Flavius Josephus.

While she seems to accept the gospels with very little or any criterial examination her interpretation of these stories of Josephus regarding these people should be taken seriously.

I have been wondering how we can have such divergent views on Jona's words. Notice that nowhere in her article does she cite any source as evidence, and if she did, we have an obligation to check to see it actually does say what she claims. Many people, even some historians, find what they want to find in the sources. Readers embrace what they want to hear and find supportive of other views they hold. Some of us learned the hard way that it always pays to ask for the sources on which any claim is made and to check them for oneself.

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,

Cheers, Bernard. I wonder if this passage, and the points you highlight, are more significant than has been determined in the past(?)

I don't know what you mean by that.

Cordially, Bernard

[MrMacSon]

to MrMacSon,

Cheers, Bernard. I wonder if this passage, and the points you highlight, are more significant than has been determined in the past(?)

I don't know what you mean by that.

Sorry, my reply was vague (I was on a tablet which I don't like using for writing to a forum such as this).

You initially wrote

Paul's Christ shares almost all the other attributes of the Logos of Philo:

Maker of the universe = Image of God = Firstborn = Son. And sacrifice of himself, forgiveness of sins (only alluded by Philo), & imitating the ways of his father (1 Cor 1:24, etc.).

When I asked you to "..elaborate on 'forgiveness of sins (only alluded by Philo) .." you replied (some highlights by me) -

"the man [the high priest] who was consecrated to the Father of the world, should have as a paraclete [intercessor], his Son, the being most perfect in all virtue, to procure forgiveness of sins, and a supply of unlimited blessings..." (On the life of Moses II, ch. XXVI)

The Son, as the intercessor, is associated with procuring forgiveness of sins. Also, according to Philo, the Son is the ultimate High Priest (in heaven), so also would himself procure forgiveness of sins directly.

This is only an allusion/inspiration, but I think good enough to set the author of Hebrews on track for the Sacrifice for atonement of sins.

I think (i) the passage by Philo that you provided, particularly the references to the Father and his Son; & (ii) that 'Paul's Christ shares almost all the other attributes of the Logos of Philo'; are not passages or correlations/associations that I have seen before. They suggest that Philo's writings were a significant fore-runner to Christianity (& may have helped seed its development).

[Bernard Muller]

To MrMacSon,

They suggest that Philo's writings were a significant fore-runner to Christianity (& may have helped seed its development).

Excellent!

Cordially, Bernard

[MrMacSon]

And I notice these quotes by Bernard in this post (on the "Wisdom tradition in the letters of Paul" thread) -

From Philo:
a) "Now the 'image of God' is 'the Word', by which all the world was made" (The special Laws I, ch. XVI)

b) "And even if there be not as yet one who is worthy to be called a 'son of God', nevertheless let him labor earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angel, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called the authority and the name of God and the Word, and man according to God's image ..." (On the confusion of tongues, ch. XXVIII)

c) "... the second deity, who is the Word of the supreme Being" (Questions and answers on Genesis II)

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 967#p54967

(quoted by Michael BG to started a separate "Wisdom tradition in the letter to the Hebrews" thread - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 601#p55601)

(b) is particularly note-worthy.

• Saying "there be not as yet one who is worthy to be called a son of God" suggests Jesus was not a contemporary of Philo (or, at least, not known to Philo).

• It also shows theological concepts that became part of Christianity.

[MrMacSon]

This is interesting -

• 'Philo's Logos as Divine Mediator' by Masanobu Endo
  
  (Abstract) -- https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/divinity/rt/otp/dmf/logos/

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,
Allusion to the Word providing eternal life in Philo's writings:
"... highest word of God, which is the fountain of wisdom, in order that by drinking of that stream he may find everlasting life instead of death." (On Flight & finding, ch. XVIII)
I have to add up that to my collection.

About 'Philo's Logos as Divine Mediator':
"And this same Word is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race. And the Word rejoices in the gift ..." (Who is the heir of divine things, ch. XLII)
Also notice here the Word being sent to the human (mortal) race.
It seems to me that was the excuse for the author of Hebrews to take Jesus as the Word on earth.

Cordially, Bernard

[John2]

Andrew wrote:

"The early Grundschrift is basically the material common to the Homilies and Recognitions. I don't think the passage quoted from the Recognitions has a parallel in the Homilies."

No, it does not, as Ehrman notes here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Dtjro ... an&f=false

But Bautch noted that "the Pseudo-Clementine romance consists of at least three strata interwoven: the work of the fourth century Homilist, a Grundschrift of at least the third century, and earlier, varied texts that are utilized by the common source." I suppose I'm using Grundschift too broadly, but I can appreciate that there may be a distinction between it and these "earlier, varied texts," and ultimately, as I said, the reference to Jericho in the Recognitions is a curious detail, at least.

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,

Saying "there be not as yet one who is worthy to be called a son of God" suggests Jesus was not a contemporary of Philo (or, at least, or not known to Philo).

That can also mean that Jesus was not yet called Son of God:
Philo died in 50 AD at the latest.
The author of Hebrews (who I take as being Apollos of Alexandria) very likely was the first to call Jesus "Son of God". I think the epistle was written in 54 AD, and Apollos may have started to preach proto-Pauline Christianity not before 52 AD.
As usual, all of that is explained in my website.

Cordially, Bernard