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Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:48 am
by gmx
neilgodfrey wrote:But there is a difference between saying Paul was active in the mid first century and that the texts we now attribute to him were written by him.
So are you suggesting that none of the Pauline corpus was written by "Paul", and that it is psuedipigraphical in its entirety?
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:38 am
by DCHindley
gmx wrote:neilgodfrey wrote:But there is a difference between saying Paul was active in the mid first century and that the texts we now attribute to him were written by him.
So are you suggesting that none of the Pauline corpus was written by "Paul", and that it is psuedipigraphical in its entirety?
It doesn't seem to me to mean that at all. If a real Paul existed (say as he is depicted in Acts, but does not have to be), he may or may not have written all the letters attributed to him. Even of he did originally write certain letters, there could be omissions and interpolations. Conversely, you can have a real Paul, yet some or all of the letters attributed to him may be pseudepigraphic (written in his name At a later time).
FWIW, I'm not sure what has been discussed so far.
DCH
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:27 am
by Secret Alias
If we start to put the section Neil is interested in under a microscope there are several interesting features to note. The first is that this section is connected to the underlying harmony-using text which lies beneath our Against Marcion. First Dialogue:
And I said, "Listen, my friends, to the Scripture which induces me to act thus. Jesus commanded to love even enemies, as was predicted by Isaiah in many passages, in which also is contained the mystery of our own regeneration, as well, in fact, as the regeneration of all who expect that Christ will appear in Jerusalem, and by their works endeavour earnestly to please Him. These are the words spoken by Isaiah: 'Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at His word. Say, our brethren, to them that hate you and detest you, that the name of the Lord has been glorified. He has appeared to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord who rendereth recompense to the proud. Before she that travailed brought forth, and before the pains of labour came, she brought forth a male child. Who hath heard such a thing? and who hath seen such a thing? has the earth brought forth in one day? and has she produced a nation at once? for Zion has travailed and borne her children. But I haye given such an expectation even to her that does not bring forth, said the Lord. Behold, I have made her that begetteth, and her that is barren, saith the Lord. Rejoice, O Jerusalem, and hold a joyous assembly, all ye that love her. Be glad, all ye that mourn for her, that ye may suck and be filled with the breast of her consolation, that having suck ye may be delighted with the entrance of His glory.' " [Dial. 85]
Tertullian Adv Marc 4.16:
"Love your enemies, and bless those which hate you, and pray for them which calumniate you."556 These commands the Creator included in one precept by His prophet Isaiah: "Say, Ye are our brethren, to those who hate you."557 For if they who are our enemies, and hate us, and speak evil of us, and calumniate us, are to be called our brethren, surely He did in effect bid us bless them that hate us, and pray for them who calumniate us, when He instructed us to reckon them as brethren
Again, for those who are too dull to see it. The fact that Adv Marc is based on a harmony based commentary on the gospels likely written by Justin and this text bears some resemblance to Dialogue IMO confirms that this portion of Dialogue likely is based on something written by Justin.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:27 am
by neilgodfrey
gmx wrote:neilgodfrey wrote:But there is a difference between saying Paul was active in the mid first century and that the texts we now attribute to him were written by him.
So are you suggesting that none of the Pauline corpus was written by "Paul", and that it is psuedipigraphical in its entirety?
No, not at all. I was attempting to clarify a distinction that I felt needed to be made given what I took to be the implication of the question being asked.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:21 am
by Stuart
The concept that the Pauline corpus is entirely psuedipigraphical reflects the position of Dr. Hermann Detering and many since the time of the Dutch Radicals. Nothing new in the concept of the heroes of the NT being distinct from the writings penned in their names.
Stephen, I would suggest you have the dependencies wrong. The writings in the name of Justin are very likely psuedipigraphic. The entire genre of Apology to the emperor completely artificial in form and substance, full of Christian myths not shared or even known in the empire until a much later date. Actual correspondence and appeals to the Emperor are very brief, and to the point of the specific complaint. They seem to follow a formula of a 1 minute limit to petitions for his time. The preamble alone turns these Christian genre of literature into fantasy NY Times polemic op-eds, especially as they often insult the Emperor they are supposedly addressing - never a wise move if you want your petition granted.
The Dialogue is also a genre which Justin seems to be over a century ahead of any comparable Christian piece. It also seems to have been put together as a compendium of related material over a long period of time. The late introduction of NT Gospel text, after many chapters of only OT exegesis stand out. The section of Memoirs this entire thread is about also is likely accretion of material. All this without even going into the problems of the setting and straw man type of debate. There are enough red flags in the Dialogue (such as the author making himself supposedly the champion of the piece, and yet with the same ancient patter of a canned speech placed in his mouth) to make me serious wonder if it is not a late 3rd century or even 4th century work. Justin being another of the Christian heroes whose name was used for another work at a much later date.
If you recognize these difficulties your supposed dependency crumbles.
I know your theory, please do not give another 5 page lithium free rant, you have enough of them and you have covered your theory ad nausium multiple time. Focus only on the difficulties of authorship surrounding the works entitled Justin. That is the only question I raised.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:23 pm
by Charles Wilson
neilgodfrey wrote:But there is a difference between saying Paul was active in the mid first century and that the texts we now attribute to him were written by him.
You are quite correct.
It is Hegel answering Kant: If I cannot get to "das Noumena" or the "ding an sich" then all I have left is Phenomena.
This in itself leads to large absurdities but the criticism is valid. If "Paul" wrote in the 40s-ish, then there is no reason to construct the Gospels themselves.
Which leaves the idea that the entirety of the enterprise was a later Construct.
CW
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:43 pm
by MrMacSon
While I can agree that
Charles Wilson wrote:
... the entirety of the enterprise was a later Construct
I don't follow your previous reasoning -
Charles Wilson wrote:
If "Paul" wrote in the 40s-ish, then there is no reason to construct the Gospels themselves.
If the Gospels were written separately, it would be a non-sequitur.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:36 pm
by Charles Wilson
MrMacSon wrote:While I can agree that
Charles Wilson wrote:
... the entirety of the enterprise was a later Construct
I don't follow your previous reasoning -
Charles Wilson wrote:If "Paul" wrote in the 40s-ish, then there is no reason to construct the Gospels themselves.
If the Gospels were written separately, it would be a non-sequitur.
MrMacSon --
I assume that your comment is not about Kant and Hegel...
Variously stated, "Paul" asserts that "Revelation trumps real experience". Paul never met "Jesus"
in real life. Therefore whatever happened before Paul "met" Jesus does not matter. The intersection of "Paul's Experiences" and "The Life of Jesus, including Post-Death" could be Null Set and there would be no difference whatsoever. Apologetix would want us to believe that the Gospels also happened to be True AND Consistent with all that is in the Paulines.
Stated this way, there is a vanishingly small chance that this turn of events
could have happened this way. Apologetix will take any out here. The tacit assumption that should be vigorously denied, however, is that "Paul wrote in the 40s." "Paul had a Revelatory Experience AND wrote about it in the 40s AND then others wrote about a savior/god AND it was all consistent across geography from Judea to Rome AND in languages as different as Hebrew/Aramaic/Latin/Greek.
Non-Sequiter? That doesn't begin to cover it.
What does make sense is that it was all a construct. The choice was between creating a story out of whole cloth or using one that was already at hand. I believe that the latter path was taken, stealing Jewish History to show that even an Event that resonated around Judea and Rome could be rewritten for the glory of Rome.
CW
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:45 pm
by Secret Alias
Stephen, I would suggest you have the dependencies wrong. The writings in the name of Justin are very likely pseedipigraphic.
I think that we have to take this one step at a time.
1. there is a relationship between Against Marcion and Justin Martyr. Undoubtedly (I say 'undoubtedly' because Andrew Criddle agrees with me) there was an ur-text behind the version of Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian and an original text written by Justin. I won't get into the 'harmony' issue here but it is enough to say that there was a commentary of some sort written on a gospel more or less common to Justin's circle and those of Marcion. The original author (Justin) was assuming that whatever differences existed between his gospel and Marcion's gospel were the result of Marcion's tampering. Irenaeus came along adjusted the original argument away from 'harmony' gospel to Luke-primacy. Tertullian copied out that text into Latin adding his own flourishes which explains why 'Tertullian' accuses Marcion of cutting things out of Luke that only appear in Matthew.
2. the question in this thread is whether the gospel section in Dialogue is separate from the main work. I think it might be possible. But that material was still likely written by Justin.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:49 pm
by MrMacSon
neilgodfrey wrote:MrMacSon wrote:
- Yes, the records that survive are largely the records of the victors, but there are also likely hints of pre-victory history too.
Saying "by the time we do read about Paul's letters" and "until we suddenly read about ''proto-orthodoxy Christianity's" state of play in the second century" are deflections to tradition. Maybe the Pauline texts were developed later then we think eg. 80-120 AD/CE??
No, it's not a deflection to tradition but a reasonable conclusion because of the explanatory power of the idea.
The 'explanatory power' of what 'idea'?
- That the Pauline texts were written in the 50s AD/CE ??
I agree with this -
neilgodfrey wrote:
Warring parties, apparently each with considerably widespread influence, don't just emerge overnight complete with their foundation myths.
but it raises (begs?) the question:
When did the warring parties eventually merge their foundation myths?