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Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:58 pm
by MrMacSon
Secret Alias wrote:
[quote="Charles Wilson""]
- Stephen, I would suggest you have the dependencies wrong. The writings in the name of Justin are very likely pseedipigraphic.
I think that we have to take this one step at a time.
1. there is a relationship between Against Marcion and Justin Martyr. ...
[I, Stephan, propose that] there was an ur-text behind the version of Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian and an original text written by Justin.[/quote]
Are you proposing
a. there was a single ur-text behind both (i) the version of Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian and (ii) an original text written by Justin? or
b. there was (i) an original text written by Justin and (ii) an ur-text behind the version of Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian?
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:56 pm
by Secret Alias
a. there was a single ur-text behind both (i) the version of Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian and (ii) an original text written by Justin?
Of course. Andrew agrees too.
b. there was (i) an original text written by Justin and (ii) an ur-text behind the version of Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian?
I don't understand the distinction.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:01 pm
by Secret Alias
There is more.
1. If you look at Against Marcion Book Three and Against the Jews (both copied out by Tertullian) there is a common ur-text. This is more or less universally acknowledged. That text was undoubtedly written by Justin. It's not that the entire work was copied out. Just a portion.
2. if you look at Against Marcion Book Four there are sections which seem to be derived from a text written against the Jews (not the Marcionites). This is odd again because the work as it now stands seems to be directed against the Marcionites. Again not the whole work. Just sections or chapters or parts of chapters.
3. The Dialogue with Trypho is directed against the Jews or at least leaders of the Jews in the period.
When this is all taken together it appears that the forger (Irenaeus) takes bits and pieces of original works (in this case all written against 'the Jews') and repurposed them.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:20 pm
by MrMacSon
Secret Alias wrote:a. there was a single ur-text behind both (i) the version of Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian and (ii) an original text written by Justin?
Of course. Andrew agrees too.
b. there was (i) an original text written by Justin and (ii) an ur-text behind the version of Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian?
I don't understand the distinction.
(a) reflects what you initially wrote.
- It says there is
the same ur-text behind
both (i) the version of
Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian and (ii) 'an original text written by Justin'.
- ie. a ur-text behind 'the version of
Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian'; and the same ur-text behind 'an original text written by Justin'.
(b) has a ur-text behind 'the version of
Against Marcion copied out by Tertullian', but
no ur-text behind 'an original text written by Justin'.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:30 pm
by Secret Alias
Another oddity. In Against Marcion Book Five Chapter 13 at the beginning of the treatment of Romans we read:
Since my little work is approaching its termination, I must treat but briefly the points which still occur, whilst those which have so often turned up must be put aside. I regret still to have to contend about the law----after I have so often proved that its replacement (by the gospel) affords no argument for another god, predicted as it was indeed in Christ, and in the Creator's own plans ordained for His Christ so far as this very epistle looks very much as if it abrogated the law.
Quanto opusculum profligatur, breviter iam retractanda sunt quae rursus occurrunt, quaedam vero tramittenda, quae saepius occurrerunt. Piget de lege adhuc congredi, qui totiens probaverim concessionem eius nullum argumentum praestare diversi dei in Christo, praedicatam scilicet et repromissam in Christum apud creatorem, quatenus et ipsa epistula legem plurimum videtur excludere.
What is odd of course is that the statement would make sense if the treatise were coming to an end. In reality though it comes about in the middle of the treatise - twelve completed chapters of a 21 chapter book. Why does the author say that he must speak 'briefly' (breviter) because the treatise about to end?
Indeed the statement might make sense if the canon followed the order of OUR canon (i.e. where Romans is at the end). But the order is that of Ephrem's community (i.e. the single long 'harmony' community of the East) - i.e. Galatians, Corinthians, Romans ...
https://books.google.com/books?id=l6jNA ... on&f=false
So on the one hand it MIGHT make sense to understand that the statement was part of a commentary on a canon like OUR canon. But the evidence contradicts that as it stands now. Indeed it would be hard to imagine why someone would break up a Roman's last canon and rearrange it according to a Galatians first ordering. But whatever.
Here is what even more odd. Whoever was transcribing the original work must have noticed something unusual about the text. There is a disproportionate amount of information from Galatians (in the 21 chapter work 3 full chapters are devoted to Galatians) and five chapters to 1 Corinthians, one and a half to the first four chapters and a bit from 2 Corinthians but only two paltry chapters for the longest letter of the canon (Romans) and a few lines for the rest of the letters.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:32 pm
by Secret Alias
the same ur-text behind both
If the difficulty is the word 'the same' the understanding is simply that Against Marcion is based on a lost text by Justin. I hope that explains it.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:34 pm
by MrMacSon
Secret Alias wrote:
- ... the understanding is simply that Against Marcion is based on a lost text by Justin.
Cheers.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:35 pm
by Secret Alias
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:52 pm
by Secret Alias
In the event people are interested in my position. I think the canon and the documents that make up the canon were established after many of the surviving treatises (or parts of the surviving treatises) were written. But the process in either case (documents in the canon, treatises of the Church Fathers) were set down in their final form in a jumbled form, deliberately obscured so as to make their original message undecipherable.
Just look at the letters of Paul. It is difficult to make sense of what the apostle is on about. It's just a hot mess.
Re: Memoirs of the Apostles in Justin's Trypho Dialogue
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:53 pm
by MrMacSon
Secret Alias wrote:
I think the canon and the documents that make up the canon were established after many of the surviving treatises [of the Church Fathers] (or parts of [those] surviving treatises) were written. But the process in either case... were set down in their final form in a jumbled form, deliberately obscured so as to make their original message undecipherable.
Just look at the letters of Paul. It is difficult to make sense of what the apostle is on about. It's just a hot mess.
Are you suggesting the treatises, Paul's letters, various other so-called early texts, etc, were 'set down' or laid out from a later time period, such as the 4th century, to give the appearance of them having been formulated when it has been traditionally thought they were?