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Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:49 am
by Secret Alias
In Babylon (as with our inherited system) every day in the week was associated with a divinity. Thursday = day of Marduk, Friday = day of Ishtar. Not sure if this relates
Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:56 am
by Secret Alias
Interestingly in Jewish tradition Tiamat the traditional enemy of Marduk was created on the fifth day (= day of Marduk).
https://books.google.com/books?id=l3lAA ... er&f=false
Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:56 am
by iskander
John2 wrote:Along with Andrew's post about the calendar issue, it's starting to look like there really was no Esther found at Qumran.
The Stone Chumash says ,
The story of Esther and Mordechai took place over a period of nine years... the book of Esther taught the Jewish people that God always hovers near His people , even when He seems to have forsaken them...
Its message is timeless-- especially when Jews are insecure and without the inspiration of the Temple and God's revealed Presence
What do they mean by : God's revealed Presence?
Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:30 pm
by John2
iskander wrote:
"What do they mean by : God's revealed Presence?"
I haven't seen the Stone Chumash in about 15 years, but I would guess it is refering to the Shekhinah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekhinah
Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:21 pm
by iskander
John2 wrote:iskander wrote:
"What do they mean by : God's revealed Presence?"
I haven't seen the Stone Chumash in about 15 years, but I would guess it is refering to the Shekhinah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekhinah
Yes, but what is the revealed presence of God in Judaism?
In the first temple God was inside the holy of holies, but God was absent from the second temple. The first temple was the real house of God, but the second was only a building.
Would a new Temple persuade God to return?
Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:13 pm
by John2
iskander wrote:
"Yes, but what is the revealed presence of God in Judaism?
In the first temple God was inside the holy of holies, but God was absent from the second temple. The first temple was the real house of God, but the second was only a building.
Would a new Temple persuade God to return?"
The Wikipedia link notes that it is a post-biblical (rabbinic) concept:
Shekinah is derived from the Hebrew verb שכן. The Semitic root means "to settle, inhabit, or dwell". The abstract noun is unattested in the Tanakh, and is first encountered in rabbinic literature.
And that:
The Shekinah is referred to as manifest in the Tabernacle and the Temple in Jerusalem throughout Rabbinic literature. It is also reported as being present in the acts of public prayer. In the Mishna the noun is used twice: once by Rabbi Hananiah ben Teradion (ca,135 CE): 'If two sit together and the words between them are of the Torah, then the Shekinah is in their midst'; and Rabbi Halafta ben Dosa: 'If ten men sit together and occupy themselves with the Law, the Shekinah rests among them.' So too in the Talmud Sanhedrin 39a, we read: "Whenever ten are gathered for prayer, there the Shekinah rests"; it also connotes righteous judgment ("when three sit as judges, the Shekinah is with them." Talmud tractate Berachot 6a), and personal need ("The Shekinah dwells over the headside of the sick man's bed." Talmud tractate Shabbat 12b; "Wheresoever they were exiled, the Shekinah went with them." Talmud tractate Megillah 29a).
So no, a Temple is not necessary, but it is not a biblical concept in any event.
Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:28 pm
by iskander
Thank you
Yes, God can be found everywhere as my teacher Baruch Spinoza taught.
But I have in mind the very formalized presence of god in the First Temple and how different this first temple was from the second one. see attached file .
Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:32 pm
by John2
I'm curious to see what (if anything) Karaites say about the Shekhinah but came across this first (which is not the Karaite view but pertains to your question):
...although the visible Shekinah has disappeared, 'the invisible and spiritual Shekinah is with every born Israelite of pure life, pure heart and sincere devotion to the Lord of Israel. And Palestine has a special relation to the Lord of Israel. A pure life can only be perfect there.'
https://books.google.com/books?id=KEaBD ... es&f=false
Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:44 pm
by iskander
John2 wrote:I'm curious to see what (if anything) Karaites say about the Shekhinah but came across this first (which is not the Karaite view but pertains to your question):
...although the visible Shekinah has disappeared, 'the invisible and spiritual Shekinah is with every born Israelite of pure life, pure heart and sincere devotion to the Lord of Israel. And Palestine has a special relation to the Lord of Israel. A pure life can only be perfect there.'
https://books.google.com/books?id=KEaBD ... es&f=false
Yes, Je suis Karaite
If the second temple was not the house of god -- as the first temple had been--then why to build a very, very large synagogue?
Anyway, thanks again.
The Septuagint seems to say that Esther was the wife of Mordechai
7 And he had a foster child, daughter of Aminadab his father’s brother, and her name [was] Esther; and when her parents were dead, he brought her up for a wife for himself: and the damsel was beautiful
, ἣν ᾐχμαλώτευσε Ναβουχοδονόσορ βασιλεὺς Βαβυλῶνος. 7 καὶ ἦν τούτῳ παῖς θρεπτή, θυγάτηρ ᾿Αμιναδὰβ ἀδελφοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ, καὶ ὄνομα αὐτῇ ᾿Εσθήρ· ἐν δὲ τῷ μεταλλάξαι αὐτῆς τοὺς γονεῖς ἐπαίδευσεν αὐτὴν ἑαυτῷ εἰς γυναῖκα· καὶ ἦν τὸ κοράσιον καλὸν τῷ εἴδει
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-te ... =20&page=2
Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:46 pm
by John2
There might be some discussion of the Karaite view of the Shekhinah here but I can't see if there are any responses to the person's question because I don't use Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/NehemiaGordon/ ... 7392293629
That's all I can find, and I'm not into this kind of thinking in any event.