Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

[maryhelena]

Josephus , war of the Jews , book I

"Hereupon Sosius dedicated a crown of gold to God, and then went away from Jerusalem, leading Antigonus away in bonds to Antony; then did the axe bring him to his end, (27) who still had a fond desire of life, and some frigid hopes of it to the last, but by his cowardly behavior well deserved to die by it."

(27) This death of Antigonus is confirmed by Plutarch and. Straho; the latter of whom is cited for it by Josephus himself, Antiq. B. XV. ch. 1. sect. 2, as Dean Aldrich here observes
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text ... _War_1.27b

• Antiquities book 15 ch.1
  
  Now when Antony had received Antigonus as his captive, he determined to keep him against his triumph; but when he heard that the nation grew seditious, and that, out of their hatred to Herod, they continued to bear good-will to Antigonus, he resolved to behead him at Antioch, for otherwise the Jews could no way be brought to be quiet. And Strabo of Cappadocia attests to what I have said, when he thus speaks: "Antony ordered Antigonus the Jew to be brought to Antioch, and there to be beheaded. And this Antony seems to me to have been the very first man who beheaded a king, as supposing he could no other way bend the minds of the Jews so as to receive Herod, whom he had made king in his stead; for by no torments could they be forced to call him king, so great a fondness they had for their former king; so he thought that this dishonorable death would diminish the value they had for Antigonus's memory, and at the same time would diminish the hatred they bare to Herod." Thus far Strabo

Great fondness for Antigonus......

[maryhelena]

Below is a basic chart indicating that Josephus has placed certain figures in time slots of 100 years from events in Hasmonean history. The chart does not infer that such and such a Hasmonean figure = a figure in Josephus. The figures Josephus has placed within these 100 year parallel periods are literary figures. Their purpose is simply to denote, remember, past Hasmonean history. Yes, there were many robbers, zealots or revolutionaries prior to the war of 70 c.e. However, the figures Josephus has placed within specific 100 year time slots, time slots that are relevant for Hasmonean history, are literary not historical figures. Yes, similarities can be discerned between these Josephan literary figures and gospel literary figures. These similarities indicate that the gospel story is itself reflecting Hasmonean history.

The gospel story includes theology, philosophy, mythology and symbolism - but it also contains a political allegory. Yes, the politics are played down, put on the back burner, so to speak. Why? Because if the Pauline mission to the Gentiles was to ever succeed Jewish nationalism had to be downplayed.

Date	Hasmonean History: Last 33 years	100 year parallels	Date	Josephus: 33 years prior to 70 ce.
63 b.c.e.	Aristobulus II (Pompey)		37 c.e.	John the Baptist (Pilate)
57 b.c.e.	Alexander of Judea		44/46 c.e.	Theudas (Fadus)
48/47 b.c.e.	Alexander of Judea		52/60 c.e.	Egyptian (Felix)
40 b.c.e.	Antigonus		52/60 c.e.	Egyptian (Felix)
37 b.c.e.	Antigonus		62/64 c.e.	James (Albinus)
30 b.c.e.	Hyrcanus II		70 c.e.	Jesus ben Ananias (Sextus)

(basic Hasmonean history and dating can be found on Wikipedia - all dating is approximate)

[maryhelena]

The idea that Josephus created literary figures has been voiced by Rachel Elior. Those forum members who were on FRDB will remember a thread at the time dealing with the controversy caused by Rachel Elior's idea that the Essenes did not exist.

Josephus, apart from stories about their life-style, mentions four Essenes by name: Judas, Menahem, Simon and John. The first three being given prophetic roles and the last one being a general. Josephus has placed these four figures in time-slots of significance to Hasmonean and Herodian history.

Judas the Essene predicted the death of Antigonus, brother of Aristobulus I. 104/103 b.c.e. Aristobulus dies within days and Alexander Jannaeus become ruler. - 70 years after Antiochus IV Epiphanes became the Seleucid king in 175 b.c.e.

Menahem the Essene predicted that Herod I would live 30 more years. Using 4 b.c. as year of death for Herod, this prophecy was made around 34 b.c.e.- 70 years from the prophecy of Judas the Essene.

Simon the Essene predicted that the vision/dream of Archelaus would bring about a change in his affairs but not for the better. Archelaus was removed in 6 c.e. - 70 years after the removal of Aristobulus II by Pompey in 63 b.c.e.

John the Essene was mentioned, as a general, by Josephus prior to Jotapata in 67 c.e. A time in which Josephus himself makes a prophetic prediction regarding Vespasian. - 70 years after the death of Herod I.

(all dating is approximate)

Rachel Elior has furthered her theory regarding the non-existence of the Essenes in her book of 2009. Unfortunately, in Hebrew. I have just noticed that amazon look to be having an English version in early 2018 - at a very hefty price. Perhaps with this English version of her book, Elior's Essene theory will get more exposure. Taking aim at sacred cows is always going to bring the critics running - but if research into early christian origins is ever to produce a more realistic appraisal of christian origins - then Josephus has to be put in the dock....

Memory and Oblivion: The Mystery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (Studia Judaica) Hardcover – 15 Jan 2018
by Rachel Elior (Author)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Memory-Oblivio ... 3110262865

A blast from the past......

• I think that Philo invented the Essenes as an ideal society and Josephus was much influenced by him, and the fact that no Jewish source written in Hebrew or Aramaic before or after the Common Era knows anything about a group called Essenes or mentions any group known as celibates denouncing private property and family life raises severe questions about their historical existence in the Land of Israel.
  -------
  Dr. Vermes correctly notes that "a proper assessment of Professor Elior's ideas will have to wait until she backs them with scholarly argument in a forthcoming book".
  However, as my Hebrew language book on the subject, "Zikaron uneshia : sodan shel megilot midbar yehudah (Memory and Oblivion: The Mystery of the Dead Sea Scrolls), has been published in March 2009, I hope that comments and criticisms will be based on an examination of its detailed arguments, and I would also refer interested persons to my previous remarks.
  
  http://paleojudaica.blogspot.co.uk/2009 ... 0225035160

[neilgodfrey]

The idea that Josephus created literary figures has been voiced by Rachel Elior. . . . .

A blast from the past......

• I think that Philo invented the Essenes as an ideal society and Josephus was much influenced by him

So did Josephus invent the Essenes or was it Philo?

[maryhelena]

The idea that Josephus created literary figures has been voiced by Rachel Elior. . . . .

A blast from the past......

• I think that Philo invented the Essenes as an ideal society and Josephus was much influenced by him

So did Josephus invent the Essenes or was it Philo?

• Scholar: The Essenes, Dead Sea Scroll 'Authors,' Never Existed
  
  Prof. Rachel Elior says Josephus, inspired by descriptions of life in the Greek city of Sparta, made sect up.
  "Sixty years of research have been wasted trying to find the Essenes in the scrolls. But they didn't exist, they were invented by [Jewish-Roman historian] Josephus. It's a history of errors which is simply nonsense," she said.
  
  http://www.haaretz.com/scholar-the-esse ... d-1.272034

[/list]

• Rachel Elior: ''Is it not true that Philo, the first witness on the Essenes, was interested in ideal utopian communities such as the Theraputae and the Essenes? When he talks of their thousands, but is unable to specify one name, one place, one date, one event, connected with them, should we read his description as history or as utopian literature?'
  --------------
  Why should we accept Josephus’s evidence, which was based on Philo’s non-historic description of an ideal community of thousands of people and was written in the last two decades of the first century CE,

Philo makes no mention of the Essenes Judas, Menahem, Simon and John. No mention of Esssene prophecy or of Essenes as generals in a war. Philo's Essenes are a philosophical ideal. Josephus placed his Essenes in specific historical contexts. Josephus dated the Essenes - thereby giving them the illusion of historicity.

(The above comments were on the website of Jim West - now defunct. However, Rachel Elior sent me Word file copies of the original articles posted there..)

[MrMacSon]

Does Plutarch say anything?

[andrewcriddle]

Does Plutarch say anything?

Plutarch no.
Pliny says:

Lying on the west of Asphaltites, and sufficiently distant to escape its noxious exhalations, are the Esseni, a people that live apart from the world, and marvellous beyond all others throughout the whole earth, for they have no women among them; to sexual desire they are strangers; money they have none; the palm-trees are their only companions. Day after day, however, their numbers are fully recruited by multitudes of strangers that resort to them, driven thither to adopt their usages by the tempests of fortune, and wearied with the miseries of life. Thus it is, that through thousands of ages, incredible to relate, this people eternally prolongs its existence, without a single birth taking place there; so fruitful a source of population to it is that weariness of life which is felt by others.

Andrew Criddle

[neilgodfrey]

(The above comments were on the website of Jim West - now defunct. However, Rachel Elior sent me Word file copies of the original articles posted there..)

Are you able to upload the articles here or give us the link to the old website -- they might be retrievable through archive.org

[MrMacSon]

Does Plutarch say anything?

Plutarch no.
Pliny says:

Lying on the west of Asphaltites, and sufficiently distant to escape its noxious exhalations, are the Esseni, a people that live apart from the world, and marvellous beyond all others throughout the whole earth, for they have no women among them; to sexual desire they are strangers; money they have none; the palm-trees are their only companions. Day after day, however, their numbers are fully recruited by multitudes of strangers that resort to them, driven thither to adopt their usages by the tempests of fortune, and wearied with the miseries of life. Thus it is, that through thousands of ages, incredible to relate, this people eternally prolongs its existence, without a single birth taking place there; so fruitful a source of population to it is that weariness of life which is felt by others.

Andrew Criddle

Thank you Andrew.

[maryhelena]

(The above comments were on the website of Jim West - now defunct. However, Rachel Elior sent me Word file copies of the original articles posted there..)

Are you able to upload the articles here or give us the link to the old website -- they might be retrievable through archive.org

http://menachemmendel.net/blog/rachel-e ... er-existed

There is a link to Jim West's site - and the TIME mag article - on the above site.