Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

[MrMacSon]

I am not questioning the more traditional view that Hanotzri is connected to Nazareth -- the word is, after all, written with a nun and a vav.
I am merely observing the striking visual similarity between נוצרי and מצרי. Note well that the uncensored versions of the Talmud were handwritten.

Sure. I posted all that in case anything was of interest to you, or anyone else, and b/c 'natsar/na·ṣar' - נָצַר is, of course, somewhat similar.

[Lena Einhorn]

Thanks!

[MrMacSon]

I posted all that in case anything was of interest to you, or anyone else ...

and in case anyone wanted to challenge or correct any of it; or elaborate on it.

[Lena Einhorn]

MrMacSon wrote:

I posted all that in case anything was of interest to you, or anyone else ...

and in case anyone wanted to challenge or correct any of it; or elaborate on it

Well, the whole Nazareth issue is a big topic -- and mystery -- unto itself. I admit I'm stumped. It's obviously there, all over the New Testament (the question is if it's anywhere else).

[maryhelena]

<snip>
I have been interested in the word 'natsar/na·ṣar' - נָצַר - and it's variations 'netser', n.ts.r, etc., and their relationships to Nazarite (through nazir) and Nazareth, Nazarene, and their variations.

Natzeret is the word netzer plus the feminine ending, designated by the letter Tav

and Nazeroth is the feminine-plural.


I have also seen references to 'natsar/na·ṣar' - נָצַר - meaning "to watch" (whereas 'netser' is said to mean "branch");

• hence 'Natsarith' is said to mean watchtower, and 'Natsarim' are 'watchmen'

Moreover, netser is transliterated to Nazir

and Nazirite/Nazarite, which comes from nazir, means (i) under a vow; (ii) consecrated; (iii) vow of 'separation'; or (iv) crowned

• eg. Judges 13:1-7
  
  The Vow of the Nazarite - http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/document ... %20Vow.htm

We see a major messianic link with netser in Isaiah 11:1

Pious Jews used the term Nazarene to refer to Christians, and are alleged to have called Jesus 'Netser' (or a variation thereof)

RT France pointed out that The Septuagint gives "Nazirite" as ναζιραιον, while Matthew gives Nazorean as the very similar Ναζωραῖος
France, RT. The Gospel of Matthew, pp. 92-93.

In Acts, Paul of Tarsus is called "a ring leader of the sect of the Nazoreans" (Acts 24:5); and Paul is elsewhere described as taking a vow and shaving his head (Acts 18:18; Acts 21:23-24) paralleling Numbers 6 which espouses a Nazarite offering Sacrifice.

Nazareth, is of course, a major research task for 'spin'. Here is a link:

Nazareth, the neverending story?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2126

If you want more - do a search for 'spin' and 'Nazareth' both here and on the FRDB archive which Peter has set up.

[Lena Einhorn]

I just discovered something else, on this topic of Notzrim vs Mitzrim (see above)! And I'm beginning to regret I didn't see this before I wrote the book ...

As I mentioned, in the early uncensored, handwritten manuscripts of the Talmud (online at http://jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/talmud/bavly/selectbavly.asp), the name of Yeshu Ha-Notzri (Jesus the Nazarene, or Jesus the Christian) have not been erased or removed (which it later was). And although the available manuscripts (the earliest Firenze, from 1177) write Ha-Notzri, "the Christian", as הנוצרי, in Hebrew that looks very similar to המצרי Ha-Mitzri ("the Egyptian"). There's just a tiny space between the nun and the vav, which, if pulled together, would look like a mem, and turn the word into Ha-Mitzri.

"Notzri" is a strange word, which doesn't appear before the Babylonian Talmud, and it has just been assumed that it is connected to Nazareth. Earlier in this thread, I allowed myself to throw in the suggestion that perhaps, from the beginning, it could have been written Ha-Mitzri. But since the available manuscripts have it as Ha-Notzri, that merely becomes an unsubstantiated speculation.

What I now found, however, adds fuel to the speculation:
There is a very strange sentence in the Talmud tractate Gittin 57a:

"Once when R. Manyumi b. Helkiah and R. Helkiah b. Tobiah and R. Huna b. Hiyya were sitting together they said: If anyone knows anything about Kefar Sekania of Egypt, let him say."

The reason it is strange, is that Kefar Sekania lies nowhere near Egypt. It is a Galilean town! This has prompted some Talmud scholars to suggest that "Egypt" מצרים in this sentence really should be something "with Nazarene associations" (and thus that the mem in reality should be a nun and a vav). But in fact, מצרים doesn't mean only "Egypt". It also means "Egyptians"! And this is also the way the word is interpreted in some translations.
Now why did these scholars suggest it should be something "with Nazarene associations"? The reason they did this, is because Kefar Sekania, in the Talmud, is a town associated with the Christians! In tractate Abodah Zarah 17a (uncensored versions), it is written:

”Once I was walking along the upper market of Sepphoris and found a man, one of the disciples of Yeshu ha-Notzri whosa name was Jacob of Kefar Sekania.”

and in Tosefta Hullin 2.24 it says:

"Once I was strolling on the road of Sepphoris when I met Jacob from Kefar Sekania who told me a heretical teaching in the name of Jesus son of Pantiri and it pleased me."

So, simply put: Could it be, that the word in Gittin 57a is no mistake, and that it really is מצרים (Egyptians)?
If so, the town -- in the Talmud associated with Christians -- is really presented as "Kefar Sekania of the Egyptians".

[maryhelena]

Here is a link to an older thread by spin - 2011.

How do we date the Jewish use of Notzrim?

http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/sho ... l?t=298867

[Lena Einhorn]

maryhelena wrote:
Here is a link to an older thread by spin - 2011.

How do we date the Jewish use of Notzrim?

http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/sho ... l?t=298867

A good source on the usage of "Notzrim" in early Jewish texts is Teppler: Birkat HaMinim, pp. 48-62
https://books.google.se/books?id=odgXVA ... im&f=false

[maryhelena]

maryhelena wrote:
Here is a link to an older thread by spin - 2011.

How do we date the Jewish use of Notzrim?

http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/sho ... l?t=298867

A good source on the usage of "Notzrim" in early Jewish texts is Teppler: Birkat HaMinim, pp. 48-62
https://books.google.se/books?id=odgXVA ... im&f=false

A review, for what it's worth - one scholar having a 'go' at another scholar...

https://ejournals.bc.edu/ojs/index.php/ ... /1526/1380

[outhouse]

The reason it is strange, is that Kefar Sekania lies nowhere near Egypt. It is a Galilean town! This has prompted some Talmud scholars to suggest that "Egypt" מצרים in this sentence really should be something "with Nazarene associations" (and thus that the mem in reality should be a nun and a vav). But in fact, מצרים doesn't mean only "Egypt". It also means "Egyptians"! And this is also the way the word is interpreted in some translations.
Now why did these scholars suggest it should be something "with Nazarene associations"? The reason they did this, is because Kefar Sekania, in the Talmud, is a town associated with the Christians! In tractate Abodah Zarah 17a (uncensored versions), it is written:

If we go by what Strange says about this town, it was Jewish per Josephus accounts of attacks being made on the Sabbath.

Reality is the Talmud is late and about useless here to make any connection to tie Egypt and Nazarene.

http://www.academia.edu/17382003/Kefar_Shikhin