Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

outhouse wrote:
"If we go by what Strange says about this town, it was Jewish per Josephus accounts of attacks being made on the Sabbath."

No, I didn't mean that Kefar Sekania was "a Christian town," and most certainly not in the times of Josephus ... Outside of the disputed Testimonium Flavianum (and possibly Antiquities 20.200), Josephus writes absolutely nothing about Jesus or Christians. He doesn't seem to know about them. And so for him to describe a town as "Christian" would have been very strange indeed.

When I wrote that "Kefar Sekania, in the Talmud, is a town associated with the Christians," I was simply referring to sentences in uncensored manuscripts of the Talmud, where "disciples" of Yeshu Ha-Notzri are said to live in that area:

Abodah Zarah 17a:

”Once I was walking along the upper market of Sepphoris and found a man, one of the disciples of Yeshu ha-Notzri whosa name was Jacob of Kefar Sekania.”

Tosefta Hullin 2.24:

"Once I was strolling on the road of Sepphoris when I met Jacob from Kefar Sekania who told me a heretical teaching in the name of Jesus son of Pantiri and it pleased me."

Abodah Zarah 27b:

"It once happened to Ben Dama the son of R. Ishmael's sister that he was bitten by a serpent and Jacob, a native of Kefar Sekaniah, came to heal him but R. Ishmael did not let him; whereupon Ben Dama said, 'My brother R. Ishmael, let him, so that I may be healed by him: I will even cite a verse from the Torah that he is to be permitted'; but he did not manage to complete his saying, when his soul departed and he died.5 Whereupon R. Ishmael exclaimed, Happy art thou Ben Dama for thou wert pure in body and thy soul likewise left thee in purity; nor hast thou transgressed the words of thy colleagues, who said, He who breaketh through a fence, a serpent shall bite him'?6 — It is different with the teaching of Minim, for it draws, and one [having dealings with them] may be drawn after them."

All that says, is that the Talmud itself associates Kefar Sekania with Yeshu Ha-Notzri, and his disciples. And that, consequently, when the same source, the Talmud, also refers to the town as "Kefar Sekania of the Egyptians," (bGittin 57a) that means something. It doesn't mean that the town is Christian -- or Egyptian -- it simply means that the Talmud associates the two, at least geographically.

Lena Einhorn wrote:
No, I didn't mean that Kefar Sekania was "a Christian town," and most certainly not in the times of Josephus ... Outside of the disputed Testimonium Flavianum (and possibly Antiquities 20.200), Josephus writes absolutely nothing about Jesus or Christians. He doesn't seem to know about them. And so for him to describe a town as "Christian" would have been very strange indeed.

.

Agreed Christians did not exist at that time.

Josephus did not know Jesus because John was the popular Aramaic Galilean teacher, Jesus had just taken over and to avoid large crowds and certain execution, took Johns movement to the road after Johns murder. Jesus mythology was in small pockets all over the Diaspora and not well known in Israel because the mythology only grew in Hellenism.

When I wrote that "Kefar Sekania, in the Talmud, is a town associated with the Christians," I was simply referring to sentences in uncensored manuscripts of the Talmud, where "disciples" of Yeshu Ha-Notzri are said to live in that area:

Which in my opinion is a Hellenistic Jewish lens describing Aramaic villages they knew nothing about. I think it is safe to say Yeshu Ha-Notzri and a connection to Kefar Sekania has more to due with its geographic location being so close to Nazareth, and both agrarian satellite villages for Sepphoris with Aramaic villagers, quite different from the people recording history here. Both of which described these people often as Zealots.

All that says, is that the Talmud itself associates Kefar Sekania with Yeshu Ha-Notzri, and his disciples. And that, consequently, when the same source, the Talmud, also refers to the town as "Kefar Sekania of the Egyptians," (bGittin 57a) that means something. It doesn't mean that the town is Christian -- or Egyptian -- it simply means that the Talmud associates the two, at least geographically.

Sounds like were on the same page here.

outhouse wrote:
"Sounds like were on the same page here."

I meant that in the Kefar Sekania case, the Talmud seems to associate -- geographically -- the followers of Jesus Ha-Notzri with "the Egyptians."

Lena Einhorn wrote: If so, the town -- in the Talmud associated with Christians -- is really presented as "Kefar Sekania of the Egyptians".

Perhaps "Egyptians" is a theological term? -ie. it refers to a community based on it's theology?

Where on earth do you get that 'Egypt' should be read 'Egyptians'? It reads סכניא של מצרים. Read carefully של מצרים = 'in Egypt.' So אלכסנדריא של מצרים = Alexandria in Egypt.

מצרי in the plural is מצראי

http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/showjastrow.php?page=828

cf. PJ Ex2:3 : ולא הוה אפשר לה תוב לאטמרתיה דמצראי מרגשין עלה he was not able to hide him because the Egyptians were crowding in on him.

Targum on Gen 43:32 ארי בעירא דמצראי דחלין ליה עבראי אכלין “for the Egyptians worship the small cattle that the Israelites eat.”

Exodus 3:22

MT = “you will despoil Egypt” Samaritan Targum = תרוקנין ית מצראי = “you will despoil the Egyptians” https://books.google.com/books?id=wHzP8 ... 22&f=false

Secret Alias wrote:
"Where on earth do you get that 'Egypt' should be read 'Egyptians'? It reads סכניא של מצרים. Read carefully של מצרים = 'in Egypt.' So אלכסנדריא של מצרים = Alexandria in Egypt."

של (shel) means "of the", "belonging to"

Secret Alias wrote:
"מצרי in the plural is מצראי"

Not any longer. מצרי in the plural is מצרים (http://www.doitinhebrew.com/Translate/d ... 1=en&l2=iw)
The Talmud is written much later than the Torah. When the plural became מצרים (Mitzrim) I don't know, but some translations of bGittin 57a has the word מצרים translated as "Egyptians". See, for instance Teppler: Birkat HaMinim: Jews and Christians in Conflict in the Ancient World, page 49: "He went to hear him from Kfar Sakhnia of the Egyptians."
https://books.google.se/books?id=odgXVA ... 22&f=false

Ps (to Secret Alias)
What speaks against the interpretation "the Egyptians" in bGittin 57a is the absence of definite article. But that also speaks against it being a misspelling of "Ha-Notzrim". So if the translation is "Kefar Sekania of Egypt", where does that leave us? A Galilean village, which the Talmud associates with the disciples of Yeshu Ha-Notzri, and which it refers to as "of Egypt".

Secret Alias wrote:
"מצרי in the plural is מצראי"

I checked Jastrow's Dictionary of Targumim, Talmud and Midrashic Litarature.
The word for "Egyptians" (plural of "Egyptian" מצרי) in the Talmud is מצרים or מצריים (Mitzrim).

See attached screenshot (I don't know how one attaches an image directly in the comment field):