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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:20 pm
by DCHindley
outhouse wrote:
DCHindley wrote:In 6 CE with Judas, the tax issue was paramount, as it was sign of submission to the Roman empire
Any reason to suspect the Aramaic Galileans position would have changed in the first century?


A Roman census to determine tribute was to transfer the rule from a Judean king (Herod or his sons) directly to the Romans, in the eyes of many Judeans. This would affect Judaea the most directly, as the other regions traditionally part of the Judean homeland were still ruled by Judean princes (the Herodian clan). The Herodians had succeeded the Hasmoneans, all Judean rulers by birth.

In 66 CE, the Judeans had been subject directly to Roman rule since 44 CE, or 22 years, and this was also pass #2 for them as direct subjects. What happened there was not a tax issue. The temple authority was cultic, and received its revenues from tithes from the produce of temple land that the people "leased" from their God. However, its edifice and rituals epitomized the Judean people's unique faith in their national God, and was a national symbol that operated independently from the political rulers and/or administration, at least under the Roman model. Eleazar the Captain of the Temple, by refusing to accept the sacrifices provided by the emperor meant to be offered as a token prayer for his own health, had made an ethical decision for the Judean people, whether right or wrong.

DCH

Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:43 am
by iskander
outhouse wrote:
DCHindley wrote:In 6 CE with Judas, the tax issue was paramount, as it was sign of submission to the Roman empire,

DCH

Any reason to suspect the Aramaic Galileans position would have changed in the first century?

The rebellion of 6 AD never ended , but it continued as banditry and finally as a' new war '.

The Jewish war , by Josephus
War Clouds
Festus, Albinus , Florus. 52-66 AD
http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-2.htm
Book II
" CHAPTER 14.
FESTUS SUCCEEDS FELIX WHO IS SUCCEEDED BY ALBINUS AS HE IS BY FLORUS; WHO BY THE BARBARITY OF HIS GOVERNMENT FORCES THE JEWS INTO THE WAR.
1. NOW it was that Festus succeeded Felix as procurator, and made it his business to correct those that made disturbances in the country. So he caught the greatest part of the robbers, and destroyed a great many of them.
But then Albinus... nor did he only burden the whole nation with taxes,... Upon the Whole, nobody durst speak their minds, but tyranny was generally tolerated; and at this time were those seeds sown which brought the city to destruction.
... "

Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:36 pm
by MrMacSon
Mr Macson wrote:
With regard to time shifting, this passage in Chapter VIII —'Of the Times of Christ’s Birth and Passion, and of Jerusalem’s Destruction'— of 'An Answer to the Jews' / 'Against the Jews', attributed to Tertulian, reads like an outline to manufacture and time-shift the narrative about Christ -

Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem: that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that “both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin.” 1226 And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader, 1227 must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/003/0030189.htm
Secret Alias wrote:WTF are you talking about? This is Daniel 9:24 - 26.
It seems to be a commentary about using and re-setting past prophecies as new prophecies. I bet it was done after the events of 65 AD/CE (and maybe after 135 AD/CE) -

"the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem ...

"... the times of the coming Christ, the Leader must be inquired into ...

"... after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His ...

"... matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent ...

"... in order that ... we may believe ... all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen."

In conjunction with aspects of Chapter VII - The Question Whether Christ Be Come Taken Up -

.... if we succeed in recognising that He has come within the limits of those times, we may without doubt believe Him to be the very one whose future coming was ever the theme of prophetic song, upon whom we —the nations, to wit— were ever announced as destined to believe; and that, when it shall have been agreed that He is come, we may undoubtedly likewise believe that the new law has by Him been given, and not disavow the new testament in Him and through Him drawn up for us. For that Christ was to come we know that even the Jews do not attempt to disprove, inasmuch as it is to His advent that they are directing their hope.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/003/0030188.htm
These passages suggest coming to grips with a narrative to fulfill prophecy -viz. -
  • " ...we may without doubt believe Him to be the very one whose future coming was ever the theme of prophetic song ..

    ... and not disavow the new testament in Him and through Him drawn up for us."

Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:21 pm
by MrMacSon
Lena Einhorn wrote:
In conclusion: ... the parallels between Jesus and the messianic leader whom Josephus calls "the Egyptian" are so numerous that it is very hard to attribute it to coincidence.

... I believe Jesus may have been identical to "the Egyptian" -- a messianic leader Josephus claims emerged in the 50s
It seems at least one other author agree with Lena:

.
Barbelo: The Story of Jesus Christ by Riaan Booysen, 2014

In this treatise it will be shown that, following his recovery from the crucifixion, Christ left Israel to continue leading his revolution under the guise of the biblical Paul of Tarsus.8 It will also be shown that Josephus knew him very well [see below], but referred to him as the Egyptian who led a failed uprising against the Romans,9 an accusation brought against Paul during his final arrest.10 This 'Egyptian' has been identified by several scholars as the person known in apocryphal literature as Simon Magus.11-13

In other words, it will be argued that Jesus Christ, Paul of Tarsus, ..Simon Magus [and "the Egyptian"] were all one and the same person.

.. the theory presented in this treatise is that the person known as Jesus Christ was born from a brief affair between Herod’s treasurer Joseph and Mariamne I, Herod the Great’s Hasmonean wife [Herod dared not touch Joseph as he was married to a powerful Roman official at that time]. Mariamne I escaped from Herod through a staged execution and raised her son outside Israel, most likely in the East and later in Egypt. When Mariamne I and her son returned to Israel after Herod’s death, her son was about thirty years old and had already earned himself the reputation of being a magician, Simon Magus by name.

Simon Peter was Josephus’s Simon bar Gioras, and John the Beloved was John of Gischala,16 the most savage of all the Jewish rebels, who attempted to drive the Romans from Israel.

I will also show that Joseph, the father of Christ, later married Mariamne II after Herod divorced her, and that she became the biblical Mary Magdalene.17,18 Through Josephus’s own genealogy, I will endeavour to prove that he not only knew Christ very well but that he was, in fact, Christ’s half-brother by Joseph (the father of Christ) and Mariamne II (ie. Josephus was the brother of Christ, interchangeably called Jose, Joseph, and Josephes in the New Testament and apocryphal texts). Most of the early disciples of Christ were impressionable young teenagers when he appeared on the scene, as was Josephus when he was first introduced to Christ. As he grew older, however, Josephus saw through the deceptions and later did everything in his power (and his works) to disassociate himself from Christ.

- http://www.riaanbooysen.com/barbelo

.

It should be noted that Josephus "introduces himself, in Greek, as Iōsēpos (Ιώσηπος), son of Matthias, an ethnic Hebrew. He was the second-born son of Matthias. His older full-blooded brother was also called Matthias. Their mother was an aristocratic woman who descended from the royal and formerly ruling Hasmonean dynasty. Josephus's paternal grandparents were Josephus and his wife—an unnamed Hebrew noblewoman, distant relatives of each other and direct descendants of Simon Psellus ... [Josephus] descended through his father from the priestly order of the Jehoiarib, which was the first of the 24 orders of priests in the Temple in Jerusalem[9]. Josephus was a descendant of the high priest Jonathon[9]."

9. Fergus Millar, Emil Schurer & Geza Vermes (1973) The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ (175 BC – AD 135), Continuum Int. Pub'g Gp, pp. 45–46
.

Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:43 am
by outhouse
DCHindley wrote:. Eleazar the Captain of the Temple, by refusing to accept the sacrifices provided by the emperor meant to be offered as a token prayer for his own health, had made an ethical decision for the Judean people, whether right or wrong.

DCH

Were not the Jews in a semi-civil war over his actions?

Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:49 am
by outhouse
iskander wrote:The rebellion of 6 AD never ended , but it continued as banditry and finally as a' new war '.

"

Understood was just looking for any clarification or detail on Aramaic Galileans.

I understand the point about the war not being a tax rebellion, but it does lie under oppression and Eleazar was stopping revenue from getting to Rome. For me a historical Jesus was trying to do the same thing by using the crowd and disrupting the money flow.

Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:59 pm
by DCHindley
outhouse wrote:
DCHindley wrote:. Eleazar the Captain of the Temple, by refusing to accept the sacrifices provided by the emperor meant to be offered as a token prayer for his own health, had made an ethical decision for the Judean people, whether right or wrong.

DCH
Were not the Jews in a semi-civil war over his actions?
The high priests were well aware that what Eleazar had done would be taken as rebellion against Rome, and it was. But since Eleazar was himself the son of a high priest (or at least of high priestly lineage) he too could not be ignorant of the inevitability of Roman retaliation. This suggests that such ideas were being seriously debated in the aristocracy at that time.

Josephus said that he and the clear thinking aristocrats would know that the retaliation could be devastating and the Romans would not hesitate to kill tens of thousands of common folk in the villages nearby any place armed rebels confronted them. Josephus' faction, once the sacrifices were withheld, had to find a way to halt the more rash youngsters until they could negotiate a surrender on terms.

The other faction, Eleazar's side, had gone into this with eyes wide open, so they must have thought God would somehow intervene to assist them in establishing an independent state, or better still, a new Judean empire. Even when the Zealots burned down the grain storehouses Eleazar's faction managed to hold out, suggesting they had planned ahead for just such an event, and stashed grain in the tunnels under the Temple treasure rooms. Even so, it did not end well for them. E's faction managed to hold out to the end, but they never gained ascendency.

First it was Menachem to suggest that he too could be a royal claimant, but he was cut down at the instigation of E's priests and "the people". Then it were the Zealots, who had no clear cut leader when they invited in the Idumeans in to help them wrest control of the government from the aristocratic Provisional Revolutionary Government headed by the high priestly Ananus & Jesus, which they did. Then John of Gischala and Simon bar Giora got on their own soap boxes.

I think things were looking pretty discouraging for Eleazar's faction by the end. Significant factions of men rallied behind all those "pretenders", and God even let it happen! I would have loved to read some of their writings of that age, trying to work out exactly how this could all fit into "God's plan". I suppose they would have sounded a lot like the peshers found at Qumran, although I am not claiming there is any connections between them.

DCH

Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:44 pm
by outhouse
. But since Eleazar was himself the son of a high priest
Everything I can find states he grew up in Galilee and was a Zealot and was shunned by the High Priesthood. Do I have him confused with someone else?

His political campaign to eradicate "moderate Jews", do you think it could be stated a bit differently and that his plan was against Hellenistic jews working with Rome. The temple elite?

Always trying to find ways to overturn Hengels lens of Hellenism. There was a division, and unfortunately the loser left nothing in their native language and were only left with a Hellenistic lens to study the topics.

Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:37 am
by FransJVermeiren
outhouse wrote:
Everything I can find states he grew up in Galilee and was a Zealot and was shunned by the High Priesthood. Do I have him confused with someone else?
Outhouse, I am very interested in your source that Eleazar son of Ananias grew up in Galilee. If this information is correct, it throws supplementary light on Eleazar’s joint appointment as commander together with the Galilean rebel leader Jesus son of Saphat in Idumea at the beginning of the war with the Romans.

Other generals were selected for Idumea, namely Jesus son of Sapphas, one of the chief priests, and Eleazar, son of the high priest Ananias. (Josephus, The Jewish War, II:566).

As the shadow of the war is hanging over the story of Jesus’ raising of Lazarus in the gospel of John, I believe Eleazar son of Ananias and Jesus son of Saphat are its protagonists.

If we let him [Jesus] go on thus, every one will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation. (John, 11:48)

The story of the raising of Lazarus can be read as a historical, non-mythological story of the war years.

Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:00 pm
by outhouse
FransJVermeiren wrote:Eleazar son of Ananias .

Eleazar ben Simon is who I am following