Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

PS (to Charles): So are you saying like Atwill, that Christianity was a Roman construct?

Lena Einhorn wrote:PS (to Charles): So are you saying like Atwill, that Christianity was a Roman construct?

Yes. Atwill has done the spade work and some form of this Thesis is true. The question is, "What goes with this idea?". The Production of "Christian Thought" in the very early years must be examined. How a Manuscript could be physically produced under someone's watchful eye is intriguing. Weitzman has his Syriac Community, for example.

If you strip away the hatred of the Jews that is so manifest in the NT, there is someting left of immense importance. Someone knew about Jewish Temple Practices. Eisenman and Wise have stated that the Qumran Community kept track of the various Sacred and Profane Calenders by comparison with the Mishmarot Cycle of twenty four weeks. They expected to "take over" Jerusalem and Install the True Calendar when they obtained Victory. They used the Mishmarot Cycle as a guide.

One of the Central Theses is that the one Story that was stolen was from the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE, found in Josephus, Antiquities 17, 9, 3 and Wars, 2, 1, 3. Who was on Duty for the Passover of 4 BCE? It began with Bilgah, and , 3 days later, after the Temple would be "Destroyed", Immer would Command the Re-Dedication when they rotated into the Leading Position for their week. It's not wacko math. Someone knew how to compute Mishmarot Rotations. Zakkai sets the Anchor Date: Johoiarib, which contained the Hasmoneans, was on Duty during both destructions of the Temple. Who was on Duty for the Passover of 4 BCE? Immer. Who was on Duty for Passover in 9 CE. Bilgah, then Immer, as before. Is there a reason this Duty Cycle repeats for the Passovers given here? Yes. Someone knows something. You can verify it yourself.

Yes, the Romans did it. You can find Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus and Claudius in the NT, from the three on the Cross in GJohn to the heavily Roman Acts. If that was the end of it, it would be worthwhile to know. However, as I say perhaps too often, "Someone knew something". Even this was hidden in the final versions.

CW

PS: If you think that Salome was limited to exotic deciphering of a few lines from Luke, rest assured that is not the case. The heavily redacted Revelations has several passages that reference Salome. There is more.

Thank you, Lena, for your interest.

Ok. I agree with you that the NT is full of riddles. But I can't buy that it's all a Roman invention and hoax to appease the Jews. For one thing: that can not explain the polemical Jewish and non-Jewish stories about Jesus, that exist already from the second century. Are they also based on an invention? For another: The parallels between the NT and Roman sources would have been so much more straight forward. Non of those weird chronological oddities, none of those underhanded hints about Jesus partaking in a rebellion. All it would have required was a Roman historian to write a confirming chronicle, with Jesus in it.

Lena Einhorn wrote:But I can't buy that it's all a Roman invention and hoax to appease the Jews.

Who said anything about appeasing the Jews? The Jews weren't appeased, they were murdered. A few of the Priests were allowed to congregate in Yavneh under the auspices of Vespasian. They were renamed "Rabbi" and their fingerprints appear all over the NT. It's intriguing to contemplate how it all could have happened. Nonetheless, what we do have in terms of real evidence is sufficient right now.

Non of those weird chronological oddities...

I'm not asking anyone to accept weird chronological oddities. Mismarot is there and it was important to many Jews, as Qumran attests. All I am asking is that you verify some Mishmarot dates. There are very few stories of the various Groups of the Mishmarot Priesthood. Those with attached Stories were Jehoiarib, Bilgah and Immer, which are just the Groups referenced in the Stories of the Slaughter of 4 BCE and 9 CE. Not weird at all. Look it up. Verify it. Come back and show me where I was wrong. The math is easy. Johoiarib, Bilgah and Immer are easily verified as well. Archaeological Sites in Galilee have physical artifacts verifying the relations among the Priesthood, especially Immer and Jehoiarib.

...none of those underhanded hints about Jesus partaking in a rebellion. All it would have required was a Roman historian to write a confirming chronicle, with Jesus in it.

"Jesus" did not take partake in a rebellion. "Jesus" is a fictive construct. The Romans took Jewish History, stole it and rewrote it for the Glory of the Flavians.

Lena Einhorn wrote: Mark 13 is a prophecy, whereas Jannaeus was past tense by the time that Gospel was written. is that not a contradiction?

Lena, what prophecy? I thought it was all about history, history in subtext but history nevertheless.

Above I discussed Mark 13, which might contain a chronological clue that the messiah arrived after the destruction of the temple. Relevation 11 is a second apocalyptic NT fragment that might contain a similar chronological clue. To start, I believe the plural form (for royal and priestly messiah) is used as a veiling technique, and that the protagonist of this story is Jesus. Verse 11 describes Jesus’ resurrection, verse 12 his ascension.

Then let’s go through this fragment from beginning to end.
• Verse 2, the trampling of the holy city for 42 months. Forty-two months or three and a half years is the duration of the war (from the recapture of Galilee in the spring of 67 CE to the fall of Jerusalem in the summer of 70 CE).
• Verse 3: Jesus is active for 1260 days = 42 months, so Jesus is active during the war against the Romans.
• (verse 4 to 6: messianic features)
• Verse 7: the Roman emperor as ‘the beast’ and Rome as ‘the bottomless pit’ ‘make war upon them and conquer them and kill them’. So Rome and Jesus are presented as military opponents.
• Verse 8: dead bodies in the street of the great city. Josephus describes how the corpses of the victims of the famine remain unburied in the streets of Jerusalem.
• Verse 9 refers to the multi-ethnic composition of the Roman legions.
• Verse 10: The Romans are victorious and receive presents for their victory. Josephus tells that Titus receives a golden wreath from the Parthian king Bologeses – War VII, 105.
• Verse 11, 12: Jesus’ resurrection and ascension
• Verse 13: see below.
• Verse 15 is the summit of this section: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.’ In other words: The rule of Rome has changed into the rule of our Jewish messiah, and he shall reign from now on. Compare with the use of κοσμος (‘world’) for the Roman empire in the gospel of John.

The structure of both the synoptic Apocalypse and Revelation 11 is similar: a veiled description of the war, followed by the the arrival of the messiah (in the synoptic Apocalypse) or the switch of power from the Romans to the Jewish messiah (in Revelation 11). So in my opinion we have a second chronological clue here that the messiah arrived after the war.

In verse 13 the natural phenomenon of an earthquake (σεισμος) accompanies warlike events like the killing of thousands of people and the destruction of a part of Jerusalem. Seismoi is used in the same warlike context in the synoptic Apocalypse. I think that in a historically and chronologically correct interpretation of these apocalyptic passages a different translation of seismoi is obvious. The Greek seismoi, like many Greek words, is a broad term with the basic meaning of shaking or trembling. In ancient warfare like in the war between the Jews and the Romans there were two kinds of military shaking. A first one is the use of ballista type artillery, huge stone throwers used during sieges. Josephus describes the use of this artillery during the siege of Jerusalem. A second one is the demolition of city walls (at least in Yodfat, Tiberias, Tarichaeae and Jerusalem). Imagine the several tons weighing blocks falling 15 or 20 meters down from the western wall of the Temple Mount into Tyropoeon valley at the demolition of the Herodian citadel by the Romans in September 70 CE. Translating seismoi as earthquakes is a fine example of how a mythologized literary construction stimulates mythologizing translation.

FransJVermeiren wrote:

Lena Einhorn wrote:
Mark 13 is a prophecy, whereas Jannaeus was past tense by the time that Gospel was written. is that not a contradiction?

Lena, what prophecy? I thought it was all about history, history in subtext but history nevertheless.

Mark 13 is obviously prophecy, as are the statements about the walls of Jerusalem falling, made by "the Egyptian" in Antiquities 20.169-172, and
War 2.261-263. No walls have fallen when "the Egyptian" makes his predictions, nor when Jesus makes his in Mark 13. Now as I said, it is very possible that the later destruction of Jerusalem is woven into Mark 13. But that's not certain.
To make myself clear: I have no reason to doubt that Josephus is writing about a historical person when he writes about "the Egyptian", but the pronouncements "the Egyptian" makes are obviously prophecy. Right? He never actually tears down the walls of Jerusalem.
And if Mark 13 relates the same event, then Jesus in those verses also makes prophecy.

Above I discussed Mark 13, which might contain a chronological clue that the messiah arrived after the destruction of the temple. Relevation 11 is a second apocalyptic NT fragment that might contain a similar chronological clue. To start, I believe the plural form (for royal and priestly messiah) is used as a veiling technique, and that the protagonist of this story is Jesus. Verse 11 describes Jesus’ resurrection, verse 12 his ascension [...]
Verse 11, 12: Jesus’ resurrection and ascension

I will play devil's advocate here (just to show an alternative interpretation, not because I know what the interpretation should be):
Earlier in this thread (page 2) I wrote about the two demoniacs in Gerasa/Gadara, who had both dwelled in the tombs. And I made a comparison to the two rebel leaders during the final struggle in Jerusalem -- Simon bar Giora and John of Gischala -- who, when all is destroyed (mostly by them) go hiding in the caverns of Jerusalem, but are finally brought up and punished.
And doesn't this description in Revelation 11 fit them quite well?

6. These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7. When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9. Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
10. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

I'm not saying it's about Simon bar Giora and John of Gischala. I'm saying I don't know.

FransJVermeiren wrote:
... Relevation 11 is a second apocalyptic NT fragment that might contain a similar chronological clue. To start, I believe the plural form (for royal and priestly messiah) is used as a veiling technique, and that the protagonist of this story is Jesus. Verse 11 describes Jesus’ resurrection, verse 12 his ascension.

Then let’s go through this fragment from beginning to end.

• 
  • Verse 2, the trampling of the holy city for 42 months. Forty-two months or three and a half years is the duration of the war (from the recapture of Galilee in the spring of 67 CE to the fall of Jerusalem in the summer of 70 CE).
  • Verse 3: Jesus is active for 1260 days = 42 months, so Jesus is active during the war against the Romans.
  • (verse 4 to 6: messianic features)
  • Verse 7: the Roman emperor as ‘the beast’ and Rome as ‘the bottomless pit’ ‘make war upon them and conquer them and kill them’. So Rome and Jesus are presented as military opponents.
  • Verse 8: dead bodies in the street of the great city. Josephus describes how the corpses of the victims of the famine remain unburied in the streets of Jerusalem.
  • Verse 9 refers to the multi-ethnic composition of the Roman legions.
  • Verse 10: The Romans are victorious and receive presents for their victory. Josephus tells that Titus receives a golden wreath from the Parthian king Bologeses – War VII, 105.
  • Verse 11, 12: Jesus’ resurrection and ascension
  • Verse 13: see below.
  • Verse 15 is the summit of this section: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.’ In other words: The rule of Rome has changed into the rule of our Jewish messiah, and he shall reign from now on. Compare with the use of κοσμος (‘world’) for the Roman empire in the gospel of John.

The structure of both the synoptic Apocalypse and Revelation 11 is similar: a veiled description of the war, followed by the the arrival of the messiah (in the synoptic Apocalypse) or the switch of power from the Romans to the Jewish messiah (in Revelation 11). So in my opinion we have a second chronological clue here that the messiah arrived after the war.

Revelation is an interesting if somewhat weird book: It is written in the first person, with many references to angels and beasts. There is only reference to Jesus in chapter 1 and at the end of the last chapter: Chap. 22. Sure, Rev 11 reads like an account of a battle or war, but it could be a number of wars or battles - the Kitos war/s (note Rev 11:8's reference to Egypt), or even the bar Kokhba revolt -

Revalation 22:6-12 could refer to Lukuas or Simon bar Kosiba aspiring to restore Jerusalem.

After Revelation 21 revealing a vision of an ideal Jerusalem without a Temple -

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed ...

22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 By its light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it,

- there is Revelation 22 with prophecy of "what soon must take place" -

And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place. 7 And behold, I am coming soon.”

Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.

8 I John am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

That Revelation 22 is the last chapter, finishing with a message from Jesus as an angel -

16 “I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star”...

18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book...

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

There is no account of what eventually happens (a bit like the short end of Mark16(?))

Lena Einhorn wrote:In the story in Matthew, the event takes place in the country of the Gadarenes, and there are TWO demoniacs coming out of the tombs, rather than merely one.

Lena Einhorn wrote:Earlier in this thread (page 2) I wrote about the two demoniacs in Gerasa/Gadara, who had both dwelled in the tombs. And I made a comparison to the two rebel leaders during the final struggle in Jerusalem -- Simon bar Giora and John of Gischala -- who, when all is destroyed (mostly by them) go hiding in the caverns of Jerusalem, but are finally brought up and punished.

I suspect that the Matthean doubling of a demoniac in Matthew 8.28-34 = Mark 5.1-20 is of a piece with the Matthean doubling of a blind man in Matthew 20.29-34 = Mark 10.46-52, and that both doublings admit of a more prosaically redactional explanation.

Matthew has represented every single miracle present in Mark except two, one exorcism (Mark 1.23-28) and one healing of a blind man (8.22-26). It appears that Matthew has removed two Marcan miracles but still represented their beneficiaries by doubling the beneficiaries of two other miracles of the same kind (exorcism and healing of the blind), in Matthew 8.28-34 and Matthew 20.29-34.

Ben.

I had a long reply to this but I deleted it. As Sgt. Friday used to say, "Just the facts, ma'am."

The 2 under consideration are Aristobulus 2 and son Alexander. Ari is the son of Jannaeus and Salome. He is poisoned by Pompey and his body is preserved in honey until Antony drops the body off at the Jerusalem, hence the bodies being left out in Revelation. "Honey?...As in, "Tastes sweet in the mouth and bitter in the stomach"? I thought that was political stuff?"

Q: Who was Mithridates and what did he have to do with Pompey? The answer to the second question is "Honey". You can figure out the first part.

Anyway, the answers the identities in Revelation 11 are "Aristobulus 2 and Alexander".

Follow the Linguistics here. It ain't Greek or Roman, for those who look for Hebrew and Aramaic Sources.

Sorry I am joining this discussion late.

Lena Einhorn wrote:Below, I will briefly, provide the reasons for suggesting that Jesus of the NT is identical to "the Egyptian", described at length by Josephus in both Antiquities and War.

If we assume that Matthew created the story that Jesus lived in Egypt so he could apply an Old Testament prophecy to Jesus – “Out of Egypt I have called my son” (Mt 2:15c – Hosea 11:1 [When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.{RSV}]) is your theory affected? (It is most likely that neither of the birth narratives of Matthew and Luke are based on any reliable historical tradition.)

If we only had the gospels of Mark and Q what evidence would you have for your theory?