Page 1 of 1

Revelation 13

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:22 pm
by Kris
Does Revelation 13 indicate that the False Prophet and Antichrist have to appear before the Mark does? There is a lot out on the internet about MOTB technology-- like chips and tattoos-- but aren't these just technology and not the Mark until he appears?

Re: Revelation 13

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:12 am
by Kris
I know that most of you don't believe in this type of thing, and I totally get that. I am just trying to take the bible verses on their own-- without all of the Christian interpretation-- to see I am correct in reading that the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet would have to be on the scene and people looking to the beast as a god of some sort, before the mark is ever put out-- and when it is, it is taken as a sign of worship and loyalty towards the beast. And for those that don't take it, they cant partake in buying and selling.

If my interpretation is correct, it would render all of the hype of microchips, tattoos, etc as mark of the beast technology false, since there is no BEAST. Does anyone agree with how I am interpreting this? I really would appreciate feedback-- but I don't want to get into a debate over these scriptures being prophecy or not-- as I am a non-believer. I am simply using the bible as a source to explain something that will likely never happen-- but I think all the scares out on the net about this stuff could be eliminated with a clear reading.

Re: Revelation 13

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:54 am
by Garon
The "Beast" always represents Human Government. The Title is "The Revelation (or the uncovering) of Jesus Christ." What did Jesus Reveal/uncover? The KINGDOM of his God. Not Democracies.

But you see Institutional religions think they have a power with their adopted Hebrew God. Their prayers are always telling their God what to do instead of Demonstrating the Kingdom that Jesus taught. Hence one has to be "saved" by believing. Not by the Churches Demonstrating.

It's the greatest Joke created in history.

Re: Revelation 13

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:28 pm
by arnoldo

Re: Revelation 13

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:06 am
by Stuart
This is an utterly silly thread that should be deleted. But since I am hitting writers block on an article I am doing and bored, I'll inject a minor bit of seriousness into the understanding of chapter 13 of Revelation.

First is "the Mark". In Revelation 13:17 we are told "... no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark. That is the name of the beast or the number of its name." This is a pretty clear reference to currency, or rather coins, which is what you use to cary out commerce. The beast is Rome or the Roman Emperor (referred to as a King or head of the beast), so the coinage in view is Roman currency, which not surprisingly has the image of the emperor on it.

Revelation 13:15 says that those who don't worship the beast (Rome and the Emperor) will be killed. This alerts us that verse 13:16 may concern the dead, when it tells us "also it causes all, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or on the forehead." The forehead probably refers to the eye socket. We are here talking about burial practices in Rome and the near east cultures, where a coin is placed in the right hand or upon the eye (Romans might also place it in the mouth under the tongue) in order for the dead to pay the ferryman to cross the river Styx to bring one's soul to the land of the dead. The practice is referred to as Charon's Obol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon%27s_obol. Note verse 14:1 seems to refer to those who would or were buried with coins of God (perhaps Jewish revolt coins, or if Bar Kochba, over-stamped Roman coins)

The beast IMO is the Roman Army, and coming by Sea was the normal method of transport and attack in the Med. The 42 months corresponds to the length of the first Jewish War, until the fall of Jerusalem. This time length is referred to in various ways throughout the book of Revelation. That Nero is the number of the beast makes sense. Revelation 13:4 is easily understood in this context, also 13:7. Other parts take on the concept of a parallel heavenly contest, which was common thinking of the ancients.

This makes the prophecy nothing more than a dreamlike stylized rehashing of the Jewish War. The fatal wound of the head of the beast is probably a reference to Nero's suicide by dagger, and the healing of the fatal wound the ascendance of Vespasian -- even the death of Emperor does not stop the beast.

It's not as sexy an explanation of some untold future event. But it fits the style of Apocalypse, using imagery and dream like sequence. Revelation is only a mystery to us today because we try to project upon it. Many make their living doing that, and scary people. Once I understood what it really was, and it's heavy use of Astrology I found it non threatening and fascinating. BTW, it is generally considered a multi-layer, multi-author piece, that probably started as a Jewish document then was Christianized and then revised a couple times more before it finished in the form we see.

Re: Revelation 13

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:03 pm
by Garon
The fatal wound of the beast can also be interpreted to mean the transfer of power from Rome to Constantinople. Same Beast just moved headquarters.

Now is that a prophecy from the 1st century or really written in the 4th century?

Re: Revelation 13

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:12 pm
by Stuart
2nd century. The part about the ten Kings and having to wait a bit longer pushes the final layer to the reign of Severus.

Your projecting far out of context for the chapter to place it in the 4th century. The proximity of events in this chapter are 1st century.