the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

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Giuseppe
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Re: the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

Post by Giuseppe »

I note a curious fact in Mark 1:10-12 :

Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness,
The words "you are my Son" are addressed to the Spirit descending into Jesus, not to Jesus himself. This fact is emphasized by verse 12, where the Spirit is the new subject in action now. This addressing of the Son of God and not of Jesus is more evident in the Transfiguration episode, too.

It is an error to think the episode in terms of adoptionism: Jesus is possessed, not adopted. And the not-possessed Jesus is a mere sinner, it he was going to receive baptism from John.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

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The provenance from Nazareth reveals that the man Jesus is an earthly davidic Messiah, too (via Netser as radix of Nazareth).

If the circular strutture described in a previous post of this thread exists really, then the risen Jesus Nazarene proclaimed by the young man of Mark 16 is equally a davidic Messiah: only, a sinner earthly messiah, inferior even to John the Baptist and not the true Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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MrMacSon
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Re: the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

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Giuseppe wrote:I note a curious fact in Mark 1:10-12 :

Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness,
The words "you are my Son" are addressed to the Spirit descending into Jesus, not to Jesus himself. This fact is emphasized by verse 12, where the Spirit is the new subject in action now.
Jesus is the primary subject of that passage, at least in that English version of it: "on him" & "sent him" are about Jesus.

Jesus may well be being portrayed as "possessed, not adopted", but that passage is about him.

coming up out of the water has Egyptian mystery religion undertones.
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Giuseppe
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Re: the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

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I insist: the following verse 12 is explicit in dividing Jesus from the Spirit possessing him. The sequence of actions is therefore:
1) The Spirit possessed Jesus
2) a voice calls the Spirit "my Son"
3) the Spirit is the active agent, now.

I think that the separationism is evident in this passage as opposed to adoptionism. The next step is to find an explanation for the separationism in Mark. He had already knowledge of Jesus Christ.

What is then the origin of his "Jesus Nazarene"?

Is possibile to see Mark as a fusion of a Pauline tradition with a " Son of Man tradition" ?

I need more reading about the second.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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MrMacSon
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Re: the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

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I can see (i) how Jesus and the Spirit descending on him could produce one combined entity or would be perceived as one, and that (ii) the Jesus-Spirit would be perceived to be the Son of the voice from heaven; but it seems the Spirit sent Jesus out into the wilderness, or the Spirit was the voice from heaven as well as a component of the Jesus-Spirit entity.
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Giuseppe
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Re: the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

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My analysis started from the question: if Paul didn't like any ''another Jesus'' different from his Jesus, then why the pauline Mark (assumed to be obviously a sincere Pauline follower) introduced a Son of Man/''Jesus Nazarene'' by his separationism (assumed by me as evident in Mark and opposed to adoptionism and even indirectly confirmed by Irenaeus) in his Gospel?

Now I see that the ''Son of Man tradition'' was known by Paul and even influenced him.

Prof James Waddell is very convincing about this.

Here I can read a short good review of his work about the enochic tradition on a Son of Man.

https://diglotting.com/2014/01/10/book- ... ne-kyrios/

It seems that this ''Son of Man'' was an heavenly being in all similar with the Jesus Christ of Paul, but without a drama of death and resurrection.

And why did Paul avoid the mention of ''Son of Man'' ?

The reason given by prof Waddell is quoted by Diglotting:
So to answer the question of why Paul avoided the “Son of Man” terminology, the authors says:

Paul avoided using the Son of Man terminology with reference to Jesus because of the first-century soteriological debate over how one achieved eternal life. … For Paul it was necessary for Christ to replace Adam as the image and glory of God, and for an obedient Christ (the last Adam) to be crucified in order to satisfy God’s justice. It was further necessary, according to Paul , for one to be “in Christ” … in order to gain access to God’s mercy through the forgiveness of sins. It was precisely because of this soteriological difference between Adam and Jesus that Paul chose to avoid using “Son of Man” or “Son of Adam” terminology. By not referring to Jesus as Son of Man or Son of Adam, Paul could then avoid subordinating Jesus to Adam, and thereby avoid the appearance of inconsistency in his argument. (200-01)
This is definitive evidence that a Son of Man was a Christ rival with Jesus Christ of Paul insofar the Son of Man, in the enochic tradition, was perceived as a being subordinate to Adam: something that is very anathema for Paul!

(remember that Adam in person appears in Mark behind Jesus bar-Abbas: clearly an inferior Jesus compared to Jesus called Christ!)

Then did Mark introduce this Son of Man (essentially: ''Jesus Nazarene stripped of his Spirit=Christ=Son of God) to make him subordinate to his superior Son of God ???

Suggestions, suggestions...
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

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I quote directly from Waddell's book the important passage of p. 200-201:
So, what does this mean for Paul’s silence with regard to the term “Son of Man”?
If Paul knew the conceptual elements of the messianic traditions of BP and even drew upon those traditions to shape his own vision for the messiah figure in LP, why is the terminology “Son of Man” missing in LP? It is nowhere to be found in any of his letters. If Paul was aware of the Enochic Son of Man traditions about Jesus—and it is virtually impossible that he was not, given the extent of the correspondence between BP and LP in terms of the shared combination of conceptual elements of messianic traditions—then why did Paul avoid the terminology? Instead of the traditional claim that Paul’s letters were written in a Gentile context where Son of Man language would have made no sense to his readers, I would suggest an answer
to this question based on the Jewish context of Paul’s Adam christology. Paul avoided using Son of Man terminology with reference to Jesus because of the fist century soteriological debate over how one achieved eternal life. This was a debate that included a number of different exalted Adam traditions, one of which argued that because Adam was the prototypical human who regained access to paradise, it was possible for any human being, created in the image of God as Adam was, to gain access to the mercy of God and paradise through repentance. And we should carefully note here that there are other Jewish texts from this period that make a similar argument about repentance, the Psalms of Solomon and the Hodayot from Qumran, for example. Paul, on the other hand, argued that this was not enough. For Paul it was necessary for Christ to replace Adam as the image and glory of God, and for an obedient Christ (the last Adam) to be crucified in order to satisfy God’s justice. It was further necessary, according to Paul, for one to be “in Christ” (a prominent Pauline theme) in order to gain access to God’s mercy through the forgiveness of sins. It was precisely because of this soteriological difference between Adam and Jesus that Paul chose to avoid using “Son of Man” or “Son of Adam” terminology. By not referring to Jesus as Son of Man or Son of Adam, Paul could then avoid subordinating Jesus to Adam, and thereby avoid the appearance of inconsistency in his argument.
(my bold)

Here is the midrash from Genesis to explain Jesus Barabbas :

And there was one named Barabbas, Adam was Son of Father
which lay bound Adam was expelled from Eden
with them that had made insurrection with him, because Adam and Eve were rebel against the Father
who had committed murder in the insurrection. subjecting the entire humanity, by their rebellion, under the power of death

For the pauline Mark, it was necessary that the Son of Man (''Jesus Nazarene'') had be purified of his sins not simply going to John the Baptist, but going to be crucified ''in Christ'', possessed by Christ. On the cross, all the sins of the Son of Man are really purified, and only so he could gain access to the mercy of God.

The sinful status of the Son of Man Jesus of Nazaret (without the Spirit of Christ the Son of God) explains both the presence of John the Baptist in the incipit of Mark and his inability to resolve the problem by a baptism of water: even if baptized, the Nazarene is still sinful. A possession by Christ is made necessary: the baptism by fire. Followed by a crucifixion and a resurrection.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

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I think that I have found a new key of interpretation of the gospel of Mark: it is a story of redemption of a specific sinner from his sins, through spiritual possession by the real Jesus Christ.

The sinful status of this specific sinner explains the particular form of the his death, too: a Roman crucifixion.

A punishment reserved for criminals, sinners par excellence.

It is relatively easy, at this point, to recognize who is the concrete figure allegorized by this specific sinner: while his provenance from Nazaret makes him an earthly davidic messiah, he is really the entire people of Israel, in real need of a redemption from his tragedy of 70 CE, that already Josephus had attributed to his sins.

Now a question that, basing only on Mark, I cannot answer, is the following:

Does the story of Mark talk about the crucifixion of only one specific sinner? Or about the crucifixion of two figures: the man possessed AND his Spirit possessor?

Under a historicist paradigm, the answer would be: Mark talked about the crucifixion of Jesus possessed by Christ, therefore the crucifixion of both the two figures.

But this paradigm has serious flaws:

1) Irenaeus says that the original readers of Mark thought that only Jesus suffered on the cross, not his possessor Christ.

2) in Mark himself, we have the confirmation from Jesus himself that he was abandoned by the spirit that possessed him (the reference to Elijah pointing the reader to the Transfiguration episode, revealing that who has abandoned Jesus was the same mysterious figure proclaimed 'my beloved Son' on Tabor):
At noon darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. And at three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Some of the bystanders who heard it said, “Look, he is calling Elijah.” One of them ran, soaked a sponge with wine, put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see if Elijah comes to take him down.” Jesus gave a loud cry and breathed his last. The veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. When the centurion who stood facing him saw how he breathed his last he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”
(Mark 15:33-39)

See what provokes precisely the exclamation of the centurion: the emission of the ''his last'' by Jesus. For a single instant, it seems that the Son of God and the Son of Man are one and the same, in the mind of the centurion. But what he witnessed was really the final separation between a man and his spirit-possessor.

“Look, he is calling Elijah”
seems similar to the same idiot exclamation of Peter on Tabor: “Rabbi, it is good that we are here! Let us make three tents: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

Under a mythicist paradigm, I am more inclined to think that the crucifixion in Mark is only of the Son of Man, not of the Son of God.

The Son of God was already crucified by demons in a sub-lunar realm (as witnessed by the ecstatic experience of the first apostles), therefore his only mission now, before the final apocalypse, is to save the Son of Man on earth by possessing him and making him crucified by the Romans (in concrete history, in 70 CE, in the fiction, under Pilate).

What other remains to be explained in Mark? I don't know.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

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Note the relation of Mark with the Pillars:

They see only a Son of Man, not the Son of God (even if the Son of God is really possessing under their eyes that Son of Man!).

Therefore, insofar the Pillars entrust themselves to a mere Son of Man, they are begging God for the forgiveness of their sins just as the first Adam did (in vain, contrary to what the followers of Enochic tradition thought). But the first Adam was not forgiven. So the Pillars also are not saved.

Unless they become Paulines.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: the insider Mark not known by Irenaeus

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It seems that the weakest point in all my view until now is Mark 2:10.


So the prof Davies:
For Mark, ''Son of Man'' signifies Jesus of Nazareth's own persona.
(Stevan Davies, Spirit Possession, p. 131)

And so prof Waddell:
Forgiveness of sins as a function of the messiah figure in LP is not
unprecedented in the history of Jewish thought. Paul would have
received this tradition from the early followers of Jesus. This is evident
in the way Jesus was described in the Gospel of Mark: “the Son of Man
has authority to forgive sins on the earth”
(..., Mark 2:10). Before the early
followers of Jesus ascribed this function to the messiah figure, forgiveness
of sins was considered solely the prerogative of the divine figure.
(The Messiah, p. 149)

How could a mere son of man have authority of forgiving sins on the earth?

Waddell argues that Paul avoided the mention of Son of Man in reference to Christ because the Son of Adam is a figure subordinated to a celestial Adam and Paul didn't like that dipendence from Adam for his celestial Jesus (the last Adam and not the first Adam).

Therefore before of Paul, the Son of Man, even if a celestial being in the Enochic tradition, has not the authority to forgive sins.

With Paul, the Messiah Jesus has the authority to forgive sins.

Mark says that the Son of Man has the authority to forgive sins.

But if we accept the definition of Davies above, then how could the Son of Man Jesus Nazarene to be in embarrassing need of a forgiveness of sins by going to John the Baptist and at the same time having ''the authority to forgive sins'' per Mark 2:10 ?

A possible answer is that in Mark 2:10 the Son of Man coincides with the Son of God, but then we have the problem: the Son of Man could gain for himself the full forgiveness of his sins only on the cross, therefore Mark 2:10 is very enigmatic.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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