Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

I would ask the experts of the forum about the Greek of 1 Timothy 6:11-16:

But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony befored Pontius Pilate made the good confession, to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he [GOD] will display at the proper time— he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

11 Σὺ δέ, ὦ ἄνθρωπε Θεοῦ, ταῦτα φεῦγε· δίωκε δὲ δικαιοσύνην, εὐσέβειαν, πίστιν, ἀγάπην, ὑπομονήν, πραϋπαθίαν. 12 ἀγωνίζου τὸν καλὸν ἀγῶνα τῆς πίστεως, ἐπιλαβοῦ τῆς αἰωνίου ζωῆς, εἰς ἣν ἐκλήθης καὶ ὡμολόγησας τὴν καλὴν ὁμολογίαν ἐνώπιον πολλῶν μαρτύρων. 13 παραγγέλλω ‹σοι› ἐνώπιον τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ζωογονοῦντος τὰ πάντα καὶ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ μαρτυρήσαντος ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου* τὴν καλὴν ὁμολογίαν, 14 τηρῆσαί σε τὴν ἐντολὴν ἄσπιλον ἀνεπίλημπτον μέχρι τῆς ἐπιφανείας τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, 15 ἣν καιροῖς ἰδίοις δείξει ὁ μακάριος καὶ μόνος Δυνάστης, ὁ Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων καὶ Κύριος τῶν κυριευόντων, 16 ὁ μόνος ἔχων ἀθανασίαν, φῶς οἰκῶν ἀπρόσιτον, ὃν εἶδεν οὐδεὶς ἀνθρώπων οὐδὲ ἰδεῖν δύναται· ᾧ τιμὴ καὶ κράτος αἰώνιον· ἀμήν.

Who is precisely the ''he'' meant behind the figure ''who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see'' ?

The ''Lord Jesus Christ'' ?

Or the ''God'', the father of Jesus Christ?

I do this question because if your answer is ''the Lord Jesus Christ'', then we would have the following logical contradiction :

- this Jesus Christ ''before Pontius Pilate made the good confession''

- ''no one has ever seen or can see'' amond the men, in the past and present, this Jesus Christ


This would mean that the mention of Pontius Pilate is a late interpolation, put there where it is found to exorcize the bad mythicist idea that among the (not-apostolic) men ''no one has ever seen or can see'' the Lord Jesus Christ. Because he didn't exist in this Earth.

I believe that Theos is the figure whom the writer has in mind when he says, "whom no one has ever seen," not Jesus. The Epistle of James, I believe, expresses the same sentiment. So Moses did not not actually see Theos at Mount Sanai, perhaps he only saw a counterfeit, the Demiurge.

Giuseppe wrote:I would ask the experts of the forum about the Greek of 1 Timothy 6:11-16:

But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony befored Pontius Pilate made the good confession, to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he [GOD] will display at the proper time— he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

11 Σὺ δέ, ὦ ἄνθρωπε Θεοῦ, ταῦτα φεῦγε· δίωκε δὲ δικαιοσύνην, εὐσέβειαν, πίστιν, ἀγάπην, ὑπομονήν, πραϋπαθίαν. 12 ἀγωνίζου τὸν καλὸν ἀγῶνα τῆς πίστεως, ἐπιλαβοῦ τῆς αἰωνίου ζωῆς, εἰς ἣν ἐκλήθης καὶ ὡμολόγησας τὴν καλὴν ὁμολογίαν ἐνώπιον πολλῶν μαρτύρων. 13 παραγγέλλω ‹σοι› ἐνώπιον τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ζωογονοῦντος τὰ πάντα καὶ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ μαρτυρήσαντος ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου* τὴν καλὴν ὁμολογίαν, 14 τηρῆσαί σε τὴν ἐντολὴν ἄσπιλον ἀνεπίλημπτον μέχρι τῆς ἐπιφανείας τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, 15 ἣν καιροῖς ἰδίοις δείξει ὁ μακάριος καὶ μόνος Δυνάστης, ὁ Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων καὶ Κύριος τῶν κυριευόντων, 16 ὁ μόνος ἔχων ἀθανασίαν, φῶς οἰκῶν ἀπρόσιτον, ὃν εἶδεν οὐδεὶς ἀνθρώπων οὐδὲ ἰδεῖν δύναται· ᾧ τιμὴ καὶ κράτος αἰώνιον· ἀμήν.

Who is precisely the ''he'' meant behind the figure ''who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see'' ?

In the Greek it is pretty unambiguously the Blessed One (presumably God), not Jesus. There actually is no "he", which was added to the translation in order to break up a quite longwinded construction in the Greek. I will render verses 14-16a more literally:


All of the underlined words are in parallel, and should refer to the same person; the italicized relative pronoun comes immediately after that entire string of nominative nouns and (implicit) pronouns, and therefore ought to refer to the same person. The "whom" of verse 16 is masculine and singular, in agreement with those nouns and pronouns, whereas the "which" of verse 15 is feminine and singular, in agreement with its antecedent: "appearance". I have suspended the verb "will show" until the end of the sentence, but it actually appears much earlier, before all of its subjects (hence the need to adjust things a bit in an English translation).

Thanks, Ben, for the exaustive answer.

This may also help:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/6-15.htm

I have long believed that Doherty is wrong about the pastoral letters. This is the most spectacular example of where his interpretation of the pastorals would fail, so it is made an interpolation.

Personally I detect the creed (symbolon) behind the phrase 'epi' Pontius Pilate. If so, this is consistent with a date in the middle of the second century, which might be defended on other grounds.

(Posted from a non-iPhone device...)

So Moses did not not actually see Theos at Mount Sanai, perhaps he only saw a counterfeit, the Demiurge.

No Moses saw god on the mountain. But the Jews weren't monotheistic. They said there were two powers in heaven. So the fact that they saw one power on the mountain and heard another from heaven is hardly a problem. The problem appears when monotheism (or monarchianism) entered Judaism (likely from Imperial influence). This is when this false dichotomy either/or good god/bad god entered the fray. Any system or reporting which references the idea of a single power in heaven as the only good god is necessarily a reaction to monotheism/monarchianism.