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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:58 am
by DCHindley
Kapyong wrote:
DCHindley wrote:I would agree that Irenaeus is the first author to quote or allude to virtually every NT book in the present canon, but doesn't that just mean that, as is the position of David Trobisch, he had access to the "first edition" of a unified NT?
Well, my focus here is on the publication of the Gospels. Irenaeus' part in that was in naming them. Irenaeus obviously played an important part in all this, but it's not really clear. He does seem to know most of the books.
I think we have to make a distinction between "publicizing" and "publication".

Trobisch dwells at length on "publication" in the ancient world, which isn't quite what we know today. No copyrights, no typesetting, no "ownership" of a text. Once you let your work out for others to see, which usually starts by reading aloud [semi] publically to gain feedback, then release to like-minded friends who might find it helpful, with these making a fair copy, and the chain of copying begins, anything could, and did, happen.

The well-to-do would, of course, have trained scribes do that for them, but early Christians would have to do so themselves, which would no-doubt slow the process down unless the friends are a group that pools funds to hire a scribe or temporarily offset the needs of a member temporarily dedicated to the task. But unless someone is copying them, these so-called "gospels" cannot be well known.

If someone wanted to copy an existing text in common circulation among, say, booksellers, he or she could make any change he or she wanted, and "re-publish" the work with his or her changes, and no one could, or would, stop them. The original author might complain, and they sometimes did, but that would just been too bad for him/her.*

This is why studies of Voluntary Associations in this period becomes so important. There was an astonishingly wide variety of them, from mystery religions to drinking clubs, most technically illegal, so almost always masquerading as a burial society, as did Tertullian's.

I suppose that whoever published the set of Gospels that Irenaeus had in his possession may have collected anonymous gospels, giving names to the authors who he or she believed, or just wished, had written them. So, earlier authors might mention one or another of the Gospels, or at least allude to one or two, but not all four canonical gospels, because they only knew the one, maybe two, anonymous ones used in their communities, and were guessing at their authorship. However, once a four gospel set was "published" as above (the publisher gathered together four gospels he knew or approved of), where they were assigned authorship, anyone who had that set could name the authors, or refer to a particular gospel by the author's "name", as Irenaeus did.

So now, in his own independent writings like Against Heresies, Irenaeus can name the "authors" because, to him, these "are" the authors indicated in the set he used. Irenaeus, then, publicizes the sets he was aware of (e, a, p & r), by citing and alluding to the works in them, although he does not mention how he got them. Club secret, I suppose.

DCH

*An analogy might be a serial publication sold by subscription, say the Ante-Nicene Christian Library series, 28 volumes, published in Scotland in the mid 19th century, which is later combined by another publisher in another part of the world (USA) into an 8, then 9 and finally 10, volume set, as The Ante Nicene Fathers series, in the latter half of that century. Each volume may contain numerous "books" (works) that were, initially, separate and independent. There are translations of works in the original series to which authorship was not assigned, which the editors of the USA edition supplied because they recognized the translation, which had previously been published by the translator himself.

Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:56 am
by Ben C. Smith
Kapyong wrote:Gday Ben C. Smith and all :)

Thanks for your friendly and thoughtful input :)
Ben C. Smith wrote:Well, not exactly, but, when you say that Irenaeus was the first to name the four gospels, it can sound like those texts did not have names before Irenaeus. But to assert that one of the memoirs hails back to Peter and that some hail back to apostles and to followers of the apostles seems pretty specific, and seems to me to imply that people in Justin's time did have names for these texts. Whether they were the same names as Irenaeus knew is perhaps an open quetion: does Justin's statement imply that one was called the gospel/memoirs of Peter, for example?
It was just not quite clear to me what you meant by Irenaeus being the first to name the gospels.
Fair comment - I'll be more careful to distinguish observations from inferences.

Observations :
  • Papias mentioned writings by Mark from Peter, and by Matthew.
  • Aristides mentioned a single un-named 'Gospel, as it is called'
  • Justin has books 'called Gospels' attributed to apostles or followers, and Peter.
  • Tatian harmonises four (presumably un-named) books into the FromFour
  • Irenaeus is the first to list all four Gospels names.
Inferences :
  • These books were CALLED 'Gospels' as if that was a formal title.
  • The term 'memoirs' was not quite a formal title.
  • Justin's comment about Peter being an author comes from Papias' comment.
  • Tatian knew only one name (Peter) and was not convinced about it.
  • Irenaeus WAS the first to attach those four names to the Gospels.
  • G.Mark was named because of the Peter reference going back to Papias' Mark reference.
  • G.Matthew was named because of Papias' comment, even though it didn't match well.
  • G.Luke was named for Paul's companion.
  • G.John was now attributed to John (instead of Cerinthus IIRC.)
Thank you for clarifying. What I wonder about initially here is Irenaeus being the first to apply the name of Mark to a gospel. You write, "Justin's comment about Peter being an author comes from Papias' comment." But, if that is the case, then surely Justin's comment about the gospels also being written by followers of the apostles is at least partially based upon this same comment from Papias. Why else even mention the followers?

Also, just for my own peace of mind, I myself studiously avoid attributing the first instance of something in antiquity to the first person whose extant works exemplify that instance — at least until good reasons can be given for the match — for the simple reason that most of what was written in antiquity has been lost to us. Irenaeus may very well have been cribbing from somebody else for his set of writings; I happen to rather like Trobisch's suggestion that it was Polycarp, though I am by no means wed to it; be that as it may, we may take the Polycarp hypothesis as a test for Irenaeus: if you think that Irenaeus did it, what differences would you expect to find in Irenaeus were it to turn out that Polycarp did it, and that Irenaeus got his fourfold gospel from him?

Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:23 am
by TedM
Kapyong wrote: No Christian writer on record had his hands on Gospels before Justin. They are not found in the public record. There is no evidence there were available to anyone. I call that not published.
Hi, I don't know what your point is about publishing if you agree that various gospels were known among Christians well before Justin. Can you please explain this? You said 'published' means to you: <<Released publicly for review and comment and quotation>>. What does 'released publicly' 'mean to you and how is that significant to you?
Yes, at least four authors knew about the Gospels. But they remained private and hidden and unknown to any Christian writer until Justin Martyr. Not published. There is no evidence of other Gospels then.
How is an author different than a writer?
You're claiming the total silence on the Gospels was because writers knew the Gospels conflicted ? How would anybody know they conflicted, if nobody ever discussed it ?.. Sorry, that's a ridiculous claim
Well, you are claiming that the other Gospel authors DID know about the other works but didn't comment on them because they were writing 'competing' works. What's the difference with my claim?

Common sense tells me that if several other authors knew about it then MANY MORE also knew about it and it was openly discussed. Why wouldn't they talk about it? You seem to be placing a LOT of emphasis on silence by writers, having to resort to claims of hidden works. I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories - you yourself provided the explanation - why talk about a competing book in your own? THAT ALONE reasonably explains the silence in those cases.


Re Justin and harmonization, I think that several facts considered together provide some basis for him using a harmony:

1. Psychologically, there was a 'need' for a harmonization, especially when there are competing arguments for authority. Those arguments would have been greatest early on, soon after the works first appeared and started to be compared.

2. Scholars believe it was a harmonization.

3. The term 'Memoirs of the Apostles' implies strongly that there was more than one gospel at that time. This weakens the idea that Justin was using one book written by one author. As does the lack of any other reference to a single book considered by all to be the 'gospel'. So either he used multiple books and referred to them generically, or he used a harmonization also referred to generically that someone else had created (he likely would have taken credit for such harmonization had he done it himself).

4. The use of the term 'Memoirs of the Apostles' without attributing any one of them specifically. I think it is unlikely that they had no author attribution within the communities that were reading them. Papias' comments argue in favor of known attribution prior to Justin. Why would Justin not reference them by name if he was using them individually, preferring a generic term 'Memoirs of the Apostles'?

5. Tatian, his student, used a harmonization - widely. Since scholars believe that Justin too used a harmonization it isn't a large step to conclude that Tatian was influenced by an earlier use of a harmonization by Justin and others.

To me, taken together, this is a fairly compelling case for a harmonization of multiple gospels being used by Justin.

Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:39 am
by Bernard Muller
to Kapyong,
The Gospels became a set of four very early. Before Justin. It doesn't look like Justin travelled for years and collected books, one by one, from different communities or authors. It rather seems that Justin received four books as a group. He also referred to the Revelation, without quoting it.
There is no evidence Justin received the four books as a group. He (or his community) may have got copies of the gospels which he thought were the most authentic, one by one, without leaving Rome, from different Christian communities there.
Well, Tatian thought there were four Gospels, because he inherited four from Justin. By the time of Irenaeus, there were OTHER Gospels appearing, so he had to defend his four as the authentic ones.
These other gospels were appearing not necessarily during the time of Irenaeus, but before, just like the gospel of Marcion.
I think Justin Martyr represents the first publishing of the Gospels, as a group of four.
So now, it seems you are falling back on Justin "publishing" the gospels as a group of four. Does that mean you accept the "publishing" of the gospels, one by one, before Justin's times?
But then, Justin was not publishing any gospels, just making use of them like no other authors before him did (extensively).

Cordially, Bernard

Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:26 am
by Bernard Muller
to Kapyong,
No Christian writer on record had his hands on Gospels before Justin. They are not found in the public record. There is no evidence there were available to anyone. I call that not published.
And how do you know that? By ignoring a lot of texts which have segments also appearing in the gospels, and deciding the authors of these texts were not aware of any gospel? And what do you make of Marcion and his gospel?
That's what you call "There is no evidence there were available to anyone". But you admitted "Luke", "Matthew" & "John" had a copy of gMark, which would make your statement wrong.
'Tip of the iceberg' ?
The old 'what about all that evidence we haven't found yet' trick ?
Which is all guaranteed to support YOUR opinion of course. :lol:
Apparently it's OK to use such silly arguments on mythicists - because they are too stupid to know any better, right ?
Well the opposite is true: your refusal to accept the written testimonies, such as Basilides & Valentinus, well before Justin's times, commenting on the gospels.
And what do you have for evidence about gMark known only in the communities where another gospel was written?
Why do you think gMark could not have been known in communities where no other gospel was written?
No there aren't. (I think Dr. Udo Schnelle is wrong about 'the gospel'.) Just similar phrases which you insist indicate dependence. Which is your well-known particular bias - the slightest echo or similarity or allusion MUST be a direct dependence on a Gospel.
Well, for example, the Didache quotes the Lord's prayer, which is very close to gMatthew version. It says that Lord's prayer is from a gospel. And your dating (and mine) put the Didache written after gMatthew:
Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever..

Other segments of gMatthew in the Didache:
a) Ch.1 "If someone impresses you for one mile, go with him two
["And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two." (Mt5:41)]."
b) Ch.8 "And do not pray as the hypocrites
["And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites." (Mt6:5a)]"
c) Ch.9 "... did the Lord say, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs
["Do not give what is holy to the dogs" (Mt7:6a)].""
d) Ch.10 "Hosanna to the God of David
["Hosanna to the Son of David" (Mt21:9&21)]"
e) Ch.16 "the false prophets ... the sheep shall be turned into wolves
["Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves" (Mt7:15)]"
f) Ch.16 "then the sign of the sound of the trumpet
["with a great sound of a trumpet" (Mt24:31)]"

I cannot call that "the slightest echo or similarity or allusion".

Cordially, Bernard

Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:35 am
by Bernard Muller
to DCHindley,
You wrote:
Obviously, Irenaeus prized this four part edition very highly. But why? He has nothing to do with things like the Gospel of the Hebrews/Egyptians/Nazoreans (variant spellings abound) like there appear to be in 1 Clement and other reputed or actual early Christian writers.
What evidence is there about the author of 1 Clement knew about he Gospel of the Hebrews/Egyptians/Nazoreans (variant spellings abound)?

Cordially, Bernard

Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:07 pm
by DCHindley
Bernard Muller wrote:to DCHindley,
You wrote:
Obviously, Irenaeus prized this four part edition very highly. But why? He has nothing to do with things like the Gospel of the Hebrews/Egyptians/Nazoreans (variant spellings abound) like there appear to be in 1 Clement and other reputed or actual early Christian writers.
What evidence is there about the author of 1 Clement knew about he Gospel of the Hebrews/Egyptians/Nazoreans (variant spellings abound)?
Sorry, back in 1995 I had compiled (using Clarion Database Developer) a 16 bit Windows database called NTVERSE.EXE that used to show what gospels were quoted by which early church father in this or that book, but those kind of programs no longer run in Windows. I had not programmed it to print the results, just list them, and although I had copied & pasted these lists several times for e-list discussions, I cannot seem to find any files that contain them. Boo hoo!@

I did find a summary, though:

1 Clement - none
Barnabas - three citations of an unknown gospel
Ignatius, Smyrneans - one citation of an unknown gospel
Justin, 1st Apology - one citation of an unknown gospel
Justin, Dialogue - two or three citations of an unknown gospel

After that, they stop except when cited in connection with condemnation of heretics.

Schneemelcher's two volumes on NT Apocrypha will give all examples, I am pretty sure. There they get categorized and assigned to the most likely non-canonical gospels we know about from the heresiologists and later church fathers.

DCH

Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:14 pm
by Kapyong
Gday all :)

Before I start my third straight day answering responses (great to engage with smart informed people :)), I present my first table here, showing possible contrasts and parallels between the two Adams, from a mythicist point of view.

The First Adam The Second Adam, Jesus Christ
Left Paradise without tasting from the Tree of Life Returned to Paradise to be crucified on the Tree of Life
Serpent gave the fruit Satan caused the crucifixion
Adam and Eve ate the first fruit Christ is the First Fruit of the dead
Their mistake brought mortality His sacrifice brought immortality
Brought sin into the world Saved the world from sin
According to Paul :
in Adam all die in Christ all will be made alive
sown in corruption, dishonor, weakness, sown a natural body raised in incorruption, glory, power
a natural body a spiritual body
became a living soul became a life-giving spirit
of Earth is the Lord from heaven
made of dust is the heavenly (stuff?)
is spiritual
is the image of the heavenly

Certainly some intriguing connections that are worth a good look.

Kapyong

Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:16 pm
by Bernard Muller
to DCHindley,
I did find a summary, though:

1 Clement - none
Barnabas - three citations of an unknown gospel
Ignatius, Smyrneans - one citation of an unknown gospel
Justin, 1st Apology - one citation of an unknown gospel
Justin, Dialogue - two or three citations of an unknown gospel
It seems to me you have been generally very strict, more so for Justin, but rather lenient on Barnabas

But I do not see anything about the gospel to the Hebrews.
But thanks for your reply, anyway.

Cordially, Bernard

Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:19 pm
by Kapyong
Gday Ben C. Smith and all :)
Kapyong wrote:No,
there is no way that author {M.Felix} believed in a crucified son of God Jesus Christ.
Ben C. Smith wrote: What do you think the author did believe? What, in your view, made him a Christian, to his own way of thinking?
Passing strange, but M.Felix barely mentions any Christian beliefs - most of it is descriptions of pagan beliefs, and refutations of the usual charges : eating babies, shameful priestly sex, blood-rites, incestuous banquets ...

One large passage I found about his Christian beliefs was this from Ch. XXXI :
  • "But we maintain our modesty not in appearance, but in our heart we gladly abide by the bond of a single marriage; in the desire of procreating, we know either one wife, or none at all. We practise sharing in banquets, which are not only modest, but also sober: for we do not indulge in entertainments nor prolong our feasts with wine; but we temper our joyousness with gravity, with chaste discourse, and with body even more chaste (divers of us unviolated) enjoy rather than make a boast of a perpetual virginity of a body. So far, in fact, are they from indulging in incestuous desire, that with some even the (idea of modest intercourse of the sexes causes a blush. Neither do we at once stand on the level of the lowest of the people, if we refuse your honours and purple robes; and we are not fastidious, if we all have a discernment of one good, but are assembled together with the same quietness with which we live as individuals; and we are not garrulous in corners, although you either blush or are afraid to hear us in public."
And also :
  • "For you forbid, and yet commit, adulteries; we are born men only for our own wives: you punish crimes when committed; with us, even to think of crimes is to sin: you are afraid of those who are aware of what you do; are even afraid of our own conscience alone, without which we cannot exist: finally, from your numbers the prison boils over; but there is no Christian there, unless he is accused on account of his religion, or a deserter."
As if morality, especially sexual morality was what made a Christian. Yet he does not mention the virgin Mary ?
I'm sure GakuseiDon has read it more thoroughly then I, perhaps he could expand on M.Felix's Christian beliefs ?

But he avoids mentioning the crucifixion every time he should :
  • "How beautiful is the spectacle to God when a Christian does battle with pain; when he is drawn up against threats, and punishments, and tortures; when, mocking the noise of death, he treads under foot the horror of the executioner; when he raises up his liberty against kings and princes, and yields to God alone, whose he is; when, triumphant and victorious, he tramples upon the very man who has pronounced sentence against him!"
That writer could not possibly believe in a crucifixion.
Nor in a God being born, or dying :
  • "Therefore neither are gods made from dead people, since a god cannot die; nor of people that are born, since everything which is born dies. But that is divine which has neither rising nor setting. For why, if they were born, are they not born in the present day also?"
Nor in a God called Jesus Christ, nor in a trinity :
  • "I will speak out in what manner I feel. He who thinks that he knows the magnitude of God, is diminishing it; he who desires not to lessen it, knows it not. Neither must you ask a name for God. God is His name. We have need of names when a multitude is to be separated into individuals by the special characteristics of names; to God, who is alone, the name God is the whole. If I were to call Him Father, you would judge Him to be earthly; if a King, you would suspect Him to be carnal; if a Lord, you will certainly understand Him to he mortal."
I think the best conclusion is that Minucius Felix :
  • Knew the Gospel stories, but
  • did NOT accept them as Christian beliefs.
Kapyong