Paul --- A Rock and a Hard Place

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Bernard Muller
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Re: Paul --- A Rock and a Hard Place

Post by Bernard Muller »

Peter Kirby wrote:
Possibly you could rephrase these arguments as logically deductive arguments and talk about the probability of the premises being true. I don't know; I haven't tried this.OK, "proving" or "prove" might not be the right words.
Maybe something like that:
I would say, I have six independent logically deductive arguments in favor of the validation of a same point. If you accept these arguments as 1) being independent, b) having a probability to be true for each one to be at least 20%, then these arguments put together show my point is more likely to be valid than not valid.

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Re: Paul --- A Rock and a Hard Place

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to Ben,
For example, one might accumulate data until it becomes apparent that 85% of the time, when an ancient author uses term X, s/he fails to also use term Y, a synonym to X. But this or that Pauline letter uses both term X and term Y, so perhaps one of those terms belongs to an interpolation.
About 1 Th 1:10, the Greek root for the verb "wait" is 'anameno'.
However, that appears only here in all the Pauline epistles.
In the other Pauline epistles, Paul used always a different verb for "wait".
1 Cor 11:33: 'ekdechomai'
Ro 8:19, 23, 25; 1 Cor 1:7; Gal 5:5, Phl 3:20: 'apekechomai'

Definitively better than my argument about "raise".

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Paul --- A Rock and a Hard Place

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Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,
For example, one might accumulate data until it becomes apparent that 85% of the time, when an ancient author uses term X, s/he fails to also use term Y, a synonym to X. But this or that Pauline letter uses both term X and term Y, so perhaps one of those terms belongs to an interpolation.
About 1 Th 1:10, the Greek root for the verb "wait" is 'anameno'.
However, that appears only here in all the Pauline epistle.
In the other Pauline epistles, Paul used always a different verb for "wait".
1 Cor 11:33: 'ekdechomai'
Ro 8:19, 23, 25; 1 Cor 1:7; Gal 5:5, Phl 3:20: 'apekechomai'

Definitively better than my argument about "raise".
I agree it is better than your argument on "raise". Paul does use the root μένω quite a few times, but yes, this is the only instance in the entire NT of the specific compound ἀναμένω. (BTW, ἐκδέχομαι also appears in 1 Corinthians 16.11.)
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Re: Paul --- A Rock and a Hard Place

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Bernard Muller wrote:Did you look at the other two cases of "Son" in 1 Corinthians? I had more wordings there to work on.
I had read both of those sections before, but only by way of seeing just how many interpolations you posited in the Pauline epistles. I had never given them the close scrutiny they probably deserve.

Upon rereading them now, yes, I agree that you have more to work with in both Corinthian cases than in the Thessalonian case (partly due simply to the brevity of the proposed Thessalonian interpolation). You make an interesting case. Am I convinced? Well, not yet. But that is par for the course for me. Interpolation arguments rarely if ever convince me the first or even second or third time through. I have to mull them over for a while first, evaluate them carefully, and compile the strongest arguments I can muster against them to see how they fare. It takes time.

I will confess that it is interesting (A) that both you and Goodacre (I presume independently) derive a sequence of Pauline letters in which 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians precede all the rest and (B) that both of those letters seem to lack some concepts that the later epistles veritably bristle with. It is at least something to think about. It is also interesting that the word "reveal", as applied to the (Second) Advent of Jesus, seems more at home in the deutero-Pauline literature than in what we think of as the genuine epistles. I appreciate your arguments in this area, and I promise I will let my brain chew on them for a while.
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Re: Paul --- A Rock and a Hard Place

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Ben C. Smith wrote:Maybe the numbers themselves were not the point of Bernard's post. Maybe the whole thing was just a heuristic device designed to show how, though each individual datum might not mean much on its own, they combine to create an overall probability that the event in question happened. Historians use a sort of procedure like this sometimes, which Gilbert J. Garraghan calls "cumulative evidence" on page 305 of A Guide to Historical Method:

Cumulative or converging evidence is virtually circumstantial. It is "a heaping up" (L. cumulus) of bits of evidence, individually never more than probable, and often only slightly so, until they form a mass of evidence, the net result of which is certainty. But, as already noted, the resulting certainty does not issue directly from the mass or cumulus of probabilities, since no number of mere probabilities added together can logically produce certainty. To produce such effect, one must invoke the "principle of sufficient reason," by arguing that the only possible explanation why so many bits of evidence point to the same alleged fact, is that the fact is objectively true.

I am not sure how valid any given numbers would be for such an exercise.

To me it seems that the use of numbers would best involve a heavy use of statistics. For example, one might accumulate data until it becomes apparent that 85% of the time, when an ancient author uses term X, s/he fails to also use term Y, a synonym to X. But this or that Pauline letter uses both term X and term Y, so perhaps one of those terms belongs to an interpolation. Even here, though, I am not sure what that number, 85%, would mean. Would it mean that there is an 85% chance that Paul penned only one of those terms, and thus only a 15% chance that the other term is not part of an interpolation? Would it be that direct? It does not seem so to me, but my experience with statistics is pretty limited.
Well said...

In general, I think it makes sense not to add (false) precision where it isn't there in the data. So, if your arguments rely on human intuition, it makes sense to proceed through to the end using arguments that rely on intuition, without casting it in terms of figures. (If you have to do bookkeeping of your opinions and your opinion of their strength, try to keep it simple.)

If there's data that can be collected and categorized or quantified, then by all means do the analysis.

I also think Bernard may have meant it more as an illustration, in the original post.
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Re: Paul --- A Rock and a Hard Place

Post by Bernard Muller »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:One main objection for all that is the dating of Galatians, which would kill my arguments is that epistle had been written early on. But I did my homework on that in http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3xx.html, complemented by some of the content of http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3xx.html.
For whatever it may be worth, here is Goodacre's impression of the order of Paul's letters:
  1. 1 Thessalonians
  2. 1 Corinthians
  3. Galatians
  4. 2 Corinthians
  5. ?Philippians
  6. ?Philemon
  7. Romans
Also, I found a Christian activist who put Galatians after 2 Corinthians & before Romans. However I would not agree with most of the rest of his sequence & his dating http://www.jerrybernard.com/lessons/PaulLetterOrder.htm

According to Reese http://tyndalearchive.com/scriptures/ww ... etters.htm, also Galatians came after 2 Corinthians.

But overall, Galatians is put as an early epistle (sometimes the earliest) by Christian scholars through very shallow "studies".

This Christian website http://graceambassadors.com/biblestudy/ ... s-epistles has something rather honest to say about the dating of Galatians:
No one knows for certain when Galatians was written, although there are strong opinions in both directions.

It is generally agreed that it was written after Acts 15 where Paul went to Jerusalem to meet with Peter, James, and John, which Paul mentions in Galatians 2:1-9.

Its similar doctrinal content to Romans invites some to couple it with Romans written from Corinth in Acts 20:3, but there is no further evidence for this. [but I think there is: http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3xx.html#galdate]

Paul says they are “so soon removed” (Gal 1:6), which may identify it as an early writing in Paul’s ministry to the Galatians, or it could be placed after any one of his travels to the area in Acts 15:41, Acts 16:6, or Acts 18:23.
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Re: Paul --- A Rock and a Hard Place

Post by Bernard Muller »

NOW TRANSFERRED ON NEW THREAD: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Maybe the numbers themselves were not the point of Bernard's post. Maybe the whole thing was just a heuristic device designed to show how, though each individual datum might not mean much on its own, they combine to create an overall probability that the event in question happened. Historians use a sort of procedure like this sometimes, which Gilbert J. Garraghan calls "cumulative evidence" on page 305 of A Guide to Historical Method:
Cumulative or converging evidence is virtually circumstantial. It is "a heaping up" (L. cumulus) of bits of evidence, individually never more than probable, and often only slightly so, until they form a mass of evidence, the net result of which is certainty. But, as already noted, the resulting certainty does not issue directly from the mass or cumulus of probabilities, since no number of mere probabilities added together can logically produce certainty. To produce such effect, one must invoke the "principle of sufficient reason," by arguing that the only possible explanation why so many bits of evidence point to the same alleged fact, is that the fact is objectively true.
I am not sure how valid any given numbers would be for such an exercise.

To me it seems that the use of numbers would best involve a heavy use of statistics. For example, one might accumulate data until it becomes apparent that 85% of the time, when an ancient author uses term X, s/he fails to also use term Y, a synonym to X. But this or that Pauline letter uses both term X and term Y, so perhaps one of those terms belongs to an interpolation. Even here, though, I am not sure what that number, 85%, would mean. Would it mean that there is an 85% chance that Paul penned only one of those terms, and thus only a 15% chance that the other term is not part of an interpolation? Would it be that direct? It does not seem so to me, but my experience with statistics is pretty limited.
Let's say we give 50% probability that the following shows that Jesus called Christ existed as a man on earth:
1) Descendant of Abraham (Gal 3:16)
2) Descendant of Israelites (Ro 9:4-5)
3) Descendant of Jesse (Ro 15:12)
4) Descendant of David (Ro 1:3)
5) Having brothers by blood, one of them being James (1 Cor 9:5, Gal 1:19)
6) becoming from a woman (Gal 4:4)
7) From the tribe of Judah (Heb 7:14)
8) Tacitus' Annals 15.44
9) Josephus' Antiquities XX, IX, 1

The probability being lowered to 50% would be in consideration that:
1) The epistle verses in question might be part of interpolations and (or the whole epistle) written after one or several gospels were "published".
2) Mythicists (or others) arguing (far-fetched) interpretations showing otherwise (that is not showing the past existence on earth of a man Jesus called Christ)

Then, according to the equation P = (1 - p)^N = (1 - 0.5)^9,
the overall probability (P) that Jesus called Christ existed as a man on earth would be 99.8%.
Even with only three of these points, the overall probability would still be at 87.5%.

Note: If assigning different probabilities for each point, the equation becomes: P = 1 - [(1-p1)*(1-p2)*...*(1-pN)]

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Paul --- A Rock and a Hard Place

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Maybe the numbers themselves were not the point of Bernard's post. Maybe the whole thing was just a heuristic device designed to show how, though each individual datum might not mean much on its own, they combine to create an overall probability that the event in question happened. Historians use a sort of procedure like this sometimes, which Gilbert J. Garraghan calls "cumulative evidence" on page 305 of A Guide to Historical Method:
Cumulative or converging evidence is virtually circumstantial. It is "a heaping up" (L. cumulus) of bits of evidence, individually never more than probable, and often only slightly so, until they form a mass of evidence, the net result of which is certainty. But, as already noted, the resulting certainty does not issue directly from the mass or cumulus of probabilities, since no number of mere probabilities added together can logically produce certainty. To produce such effect, one must invoke the "principle of sufficient reason," by arguing that the only possible explanation why so many bits of evidence point to the same alleged fact, is that the fact is objectively true.
I am not sure how valid any given numbers would be for such an exercise.

To me it seems that the use of numbers would best involve a heavy use of statistics. For example, one might accumulate data until it becomes apparent that 85% of the time, when an ancient author uses term X, s/he fails to also use term Y, a synonym to X. But this or that Pauline letter uses both term X and term Y, so perhaps one of those terms belongs to an interpolation. Even here, though, I am not sure what that number, 85%, would mean. Would it mean that there is an 85% chance that Paul penned only one of those terms, and thus only a 15% chance that the other term is not part of an interpolation? Would it be that direct? It does not seem so to me, but my experience with statistics is pretty limited.
Let's say we give 50% probability that the following shows that Jesus called Christ existed as a man on earth....
When did this turn into an HJ/MJ exercise? I thought this was about Pauline interpolations.
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Re: Paul --- A Rock and a Hard Place

Post by Bernard Muller »

To Ben,
When did this turn into an HJ/MJ exercise? I thought this was about Pauline interpolations.
I transferred the post on a new thread: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Cordially, Bernard
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